Ground Zero Mosque Plans Move Forward

Anyway, jonnythan... I gotta go - that link will provide you with insight into what Islam was like in Cordoba. Words like Taqiyya, jizya or dhimmi - if you encounter them, are interesting words and i recommend that you investigate their meaning - not just on contemporary Islamic sites, but on other sites as well. It is very illuminating... especially those sites that quote the writings of older, more valued Islamic texts. These texts often show taqiyya in action.

Another example is my old koran - footnoted as it is, it provides a wealth of information on the need for every Muslim to be involved in jihad. New korans that I have perused seem to lack that detail... understanding the practice of taqiyya as I do, I find this fact very curious.

I do not entirely trust Islam because their religion expressly tells them to lie in the cause of their religion.

Also, the Muslim Brotherhood (which has, at least, indirect links to the group seeking to build the mosque we are discussing here), has already enunciated its aim of eradicating western democracy from within... check their manifesto out - it is online...

Now, it is true that not every Muslim is a radical, but thousands of them in western nations including the USA certainly are, and have expressed it publicly... how many more hold to the doctrine but are practicing taqiyya? None of us can know, but it is safe to assume that a reasonable percentage does... is it 1% ... 10% ... higher... who knows... But at the very least, there is reason to look at Islam with interest.

Thanks Katie, well it sounds like a good thing to me. Anything that promotes tolerance does.

Yes Muslims captured a lot of the Iberian peninsula, they also tolerated Jews and Christians living there while they ruled. The exact opposite of what happened when it was retaken in the reconquista.

Cordoba is actually a Roman name and not really much to do with Islam.

So even if they did call the mosque Cordoba, so what? It'd be like calling it Gaul or Brittania.

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I'd say that pretty much sums up your position so forgive me if I think you are one.

Um, the muslims captured Cordoba through warfare, and placed the Catholics under dhimmitude, and killed a few of them as well. It was not some utopian paradise. And, when later caliphs came in, they started doing a little more aggressive killing. They all forbid the preaching of Christianity, destroyed the largest church (and used that ground to build a mosque paid for out of the jizya paid by Catrholic dhimmis), forbid any improvement or alteration to existing churches, burned a few of them down, and so on.

The myth of Islam as a religion of peace is destroyed by its history of violence... remember, Mohammad (may the pedophile be cursed) cut the heads of 600 Jews in a single day.

His religion calls for a genocidal war to be fought against Jews. The koran demands that Muslims desire to fight jihad (holy war - and please don't say that jihad does not mean that, I have already clearly demonstrated to you that it does according to Muslims), until "all religion is for allah alone" and that the muslims "be harsh on unbelievers that live near [Muslims]" and force them to pay jizya "until they feel themselves subdued".

yes, I am a little intolerant of people that preach genocide and want to kill people for writing books and drawing cartoons... I mean... call me crazy, but i think genocide is a bad thing - and killing people for mocking you is, well, somewhere between evil and pathetic.

You have 'clearly demonstrated' nothing except your biased, hateful views about Islam and Muslims.

Show me your authoritative research where you undeniably prove that jihad means holy war when others who actually speak and understand Arabic point out it is a noun that means 'struggle'.

I'd love to see, honestly.

I have already done it another thread where you brought this up. Why should i do it again? But anyway, to repeat it just for you... "jihad (holy fighting) in allah's cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). From page 36 of the ig'noble' koran... they do not give a date of print...

Anyway, this is fairly definitive, and is the result of the work of Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan - these guys actually are Muslim, and they actually do say that jihad means holy war. In the text where war is mentioned - not the least of which is the verses in the last revelation given to Mohammad the 'prophet' (Surah 9), where he is called on to kill and or subdue unbelievers (through forcing them into dhimmitude), they use the word "jihad" in relation to warfare in the "cause of allah." They use it repeatedly in other places in the text... I will take their word for it, they are Muslim scholars.

Again, find out about Islamic tradition - the concept of "taqiyya" - look it up online... they are allowed to lie to you, in fact, they are virtually commanded to lie to you if the truth would be harmful to Islam, or, could put them in danger of persecution. To tell you that the desire to kill or enslave you is a "pillar of Islam" is something that any sane Muslim might possibly consider as something that could cause him to be persecuted, or placed at risk, and lying is then ok, according to the doctrine of taqiyya.

Now, before you go getting all excited - do all Muslims see it that way? No, probably not. But how many of them do? How the hell can we tell? How can we trust people who are not able to be trusted, *because* their religion tells them to lie to us.

If you have an actual answer, as opposed to a mere wish or some "magic" knowledge that I am not privvy to, please enlighten me.

"A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism."

"Radicalization of alienated Muslim youths is a real threat, Mr. Bagby said."

"Mr. Harmoush said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council."

?We do all these activities and nobody notices,? he said. ?Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.?

?Every new group coming to this country ? Jews, Catholics, Irish, Germans, Japanese ? has gone through this,? Dr. Mirza said. ?Now I think it?s our turn to pay the price, and eventually we will be coming out of this, too.?

There was an Islamic community center on that site years before 911! And it was open to people of all faiths!

I kinda agree.

Then again, I hope Christians fly fully loaded aircraft into this mosque and rebuild a church in it's place. See how the tolerant muslims react.

Yeah, condemn Muslim terrorism then condone an act of terrorism. Top marks for hypocrisy.

Not to worry.. He's obviously never been anywhere near the place that the mosque is going to be built.. He's obviously never been anywhere near NYC for that matter..

He thinks that someone can fly a plane into a 12 story building in lower manhattan? 12 stories is nothing.. There are parking garages and high schools that are taller.

Someone on another forum said it shouldn't be built because debris fell on the building they want to use and it's 'sacred'.

Surely that means half of Manhattan is sacred.

Well, my old apartment would have been sacred then.. Maybe that's why they're making it condos now?