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Should the Confederate "Stars & Bars" be retired from government buildings?

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shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#106New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 14:31:55
@Crush Said

He did disavow slavery.




He owed a greater loyalty to Virginia.



He was defending his home.




Did you eat leaded paint chips as a kid? When I wrote "States rights, you mean slavery!" I was mocking you for your ridiculous attempt to make everything about slavery.



Because he had slaves doesn't mean he fought to preserve slavery. The great majority of the men in the army of the CSA never owned a slave.


"Because he had slaves doesn't mean he fought to preserve slavery. The great majority of the men in the army of the CSA never owned a slave. "
History revisionism AND white privilege all rolled into one.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#107New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 14:33:24
@Crush Said

Look champ, we all agree slavery was a cause. But it wasn't the only cause. It wasn't the only cause listed in the state declarations. And even if slavery were the only listed cause in the declaration, the declarations alone aren't the sole voice of the cause of the war.


It is THE ONLY CAUSE that ties everything together. Without slavery all the other issues just silently go away.
chaski On April 19, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#108New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 15:42:22
On the topic of Robert E Lee's position on slavery: What follows is, apparently, his own words.

Note that while he makes statements to the effect that ultimately slavery is evil, he also essentially puts the responsibility of getting rid of slavery in god's hands. When one puts Lee's opinion in the context of choosing to fight for Virginia and the South just 5 years later, it is clear that at the time he supported slavery in the south and ultimately recognized that the conflict at hand was in large part about slavery.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?
chaski On April 19, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#109New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 16:02:37
In any case, while there were more than one reason for the civil war, history is clear that the dominating factor was none the less slavery.

However, even if the slavery issue was only say 30% of the reason, one cannot legitimately separate the civil war and slavery.

And, since the battle flag is the symbol of the southern ideology it is also, at a minimum, at least in part a symbol of slavery.

Any attempt to separate the two (the confederate battle flag and slavery) is disingenuous at best and ultimately ignorant of the historical facts.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#110New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 16:16:57
@chaski Said

On the topic of Robert E Lee's position on slavery: What follows is, apparently, his own words.

Note that while he makes statements to the effect that ultimately slavery is evil, he also essentially puts the responsibility of getting rid of slavery in god's hands. When one puts Lee's opinion in the context of choosing to fight for Virginia and the South just 5 years later, it is clear that at the time he supported slavery in the south and ultimately recognized that the conflict at hand was in large part about slavery.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?


Hmmmm, God wants to be the great decider so just get out of our way.....
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#111New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 16:18:06
@chaski Said

In any case, while there were more than one reason for the civil war, history is clear that the dominating factor was none the less slavery.

However, even if the slavery issue was only say 30% of the reason, one cannot legitimately separate the civil war and slavery.

And, since the battle flag is the symbol of the southern ideology it is also, at a minimum, at least in part a symbol of slavery.

Any attempt to separate the two (the confederate battle flag and slavery) is disingenuous at best and ultimately ignorant of the historical facts.


I'd say it was more closer to 90% or more judging from the words of the south themselves as well as their declarations!
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#112New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 16:32:42
From the confederate cornerstone speech:
"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. "
And:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. "

Slavery and racism were part of the foundations of the confederacy. Their leaders said it over and over again to any one that would listen or read. They were not ashamed of it. They owned it in their words and deeds. That is what they stood for. That is what upholding the confederacy means today upholding their cornerstones.
This revisionist crap of states rights is new and apologetic only to try and save face because the confederacy lost.

If someone shows and tells you who they are, why can you not just believe it?
That is what I don't understand, the need to make excuses. Again I'm not saying not to teach about this stuff. In reality we need to teach more because people seem to think the "gone with the wind" fiction is real. It wasn't.

Personally, I'd have more respect if people just owned all their "controversial" opinions. But they probably won't because they are too chicken s*** to stand up for it and take the consequences of being on the other side of public opinion. It's easy when others agree with you.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#113New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:04:56
@DiscordTiger Said

From the confederate cornerstone speech:
"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. "
And:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. "

Slavery and racism were part of the foundations of the confederacy. Their leaders said it over and over again to any one that would listen or read. They were not ashamed of it. They owned it in their words and deeds. That is what they stood for. That is what upholding the confederacy means today upholding their cornerstones.
This revisionist crap of states rights is new and apologetic only to try and save face because the confederacy lost.

If someone shows and tells you who they are, why can you not just believe it?
That is what I don't understand, the need to make excuses. Again I'm not saying not to teach about this stuff. In reality we need to teach more because people seem to think the "gone with the wind" fiction is real. It wasn't.

Personally, I'd have more respect if people just owned all their "controversial" opinions. But they probably won't because they are too chicken s*** to stand up for it and take the consequences of being on the other side of public opinion. It's easy when others agree with you.


Amen!
JTFSCOTT On November 30, 2015

Banned



Columbus,
#114New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:06:34
@chaski Said

On the topic of Robert E Lee's position on slavery: What follows is, apparently, his own words.

Note that while he makes statements to the effect that ultimately slavery is evil, he also essentially puts the responsibility of getting rid of slavery in god's hands. When one puts Lee's opinion in the context of choosing to fight for Virginia and the South just 5 years later, it is clear that at the time he supported slavery in the south and ultimately recognized that the conflict at hand was in large part about slavery.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?



win
yami On September 11, 2016

Banned



grimsby, United Kingdom
#115New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:07:21
I'm time chicken s*** to stand up for mine, I had a Jewish mate once and they always used to say to him
"Hey, your a jewboy, you killed our lord god jesus didn't you?"
He used to yeah, that was me but realised if he took the piss they'd kick his head in. so he just used to say, no, it was that guy over there and run away.
JTFSCOTT On November 30, 2015

Banned



Columbus,
#116New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:10:42
@DiscordTiger Said

This revisionist crap of states rights is new and apologetic only to try and save face because the confederacy lost.




I don't see the battle for states rights ever being a product of dishonest historians--historical re-writes. States rights has been and still is a big deal. It's part of what makes Federalism Federalism.
yami On September 11, 2016

Banned



grimsby, United Kingdom
#117New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:11:39
@JTFSCOTT Said

I don't see the battle for states rights ever being a product of dishonest historians--historical re-writes. States rights has been and still is a big deal. It's part of what makes Federalism Federalism.



States rights under capitalism?
Are you serious? Capitalism trumps everything.
JTFSCOTT On November 30, 2015

Banned



Columbus,
#118New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:16:57
@yami Said

States rights under capitalism?
Are you serious? Capitalism trumps everything.



It's not an either or.

For a while california was losing businesses. That state has make it more difficult to do well. Other states like Texas are doing a bit better as they seem to be attracting commerce.
chaski On April 19, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#119New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:30:36
@JTFSCOTT Said

win



Yes.

The U.S.A. won.

The CSA lost.

Slavery was abolished thanks to this win.

Good to see that you are finally getting it.
JTFSCOTT On November 30, 2015

Banned



Columbus,
#120New Post! Jun 30, 2015 @ 17:34:26
@chaski Said

Yes.

The U.S.A. won.

The CSA lost.

Slavery was abolished thanks to this win.

Good to see that you are finally getting it.



The point there was to acknowledge that General Lee wasn't for slavery.
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