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SparklyKatie On March 07, 2014
\m//O_O\\m/





Sheffield, United Kingdom
#61New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 19:48:25
@Junkyard_Jim Said

I appreciate what you say, but I cannot agree in total. Careful with those Nazis, they actually were much more to the left of center. They were all about government control of the masses, not hardly a right of center trait. National socialism was just another kind of socialism and they all reside left of center. Chaos actually is what comes from being way to right of center.

We're way off your thread here and I don't think Obama is Muslim. He's more of an agnostic than anything, really. In any case, there are people on all sides who will take advantage of what the Imam can do or what he does not do. They'll use it to their own ends for good or evil. When this dies down, something else will come in to take its place.

The Imam is not open enough for me, personally, to support his building project. He does not own all the property and he doesn't actually have a pot to piss in for starting it up. His premature announcement and lack of flexibility to even meet with 9/11 families and city authorities pretty much sums it up for me. I see no reason to give him any more string to run with when he isn't willing to be open regarding what is going up there, how it will bring outreach and healing, etc. He has actually said nothing other than standard platitudes that pluck at the heart of people who who want the best for all. That's not how the world is constructed. His project people stated openly they would take money from Saudi Arabia and Iran to build the project. How does that make anyone in NYC feel good?

Said my piece. I'll keep this for the other threads that are about the mosque. Like I said, Obama is not a Muslim. He worships his God his own way.


Look, if Glenn Beck and other muppets of his ilk are allowed to spout their hatred I don't think a premature announcement of a building that isn't fully funded yet is much of a concern.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#62New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 21:37:13
@Spinkiegirl Said

But, that's just the most insane thing to even think! Why do some Americans seem to have such HATE for these Muslims? I NEED an explanation!


I cannot answer for all the Americans. But, the fact that any true Muslim wants to see every Jew killed, and indeed, *must want* to be involved in the killing of every Jew, is a cause for distrust - genocidal individuals throughout history have generally been a little on the bad side. (To verify this, type into Google the following - before that day, even the stones behind which a Jew is hiding will cry out 'Oh! Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me. Cut his head off.

Also, the fact that jihad is a pillar of Islam, and they say that it is not, or, that it only means 'struggle', when it *actually* does mean, "killing or going to war in the cause of allah" is a cause for concern.

The fact that most Muslims lie and and say "Islam means peace" when, in fact, it does not mean that at all, is interesting (it means submission - slm pronounced "salam" means peace, not slm pronounced Islam)... also, every Muslim - if indeed he/she is a Muslim, knows that genocide is a part of their basic tenet of belief, yet they tell us that Islam means peace - I do not see how "peace" and "genocide" fit together... but, maybe I am wrong, maybe one can be desiring to be involved in genocide, yet at he same time be peaceful. I am not sure how though...

The fact that the koran calls on all Muslims to fight in jihad, and to kill or enslave all the kafirs (see Surah 9.5 - or, Surah 9 generally, really), is certainly cause for concern.

The koran tells Muslims that they cannot be friends with kafirs, but that they can lie to us by pretending to be our friend (this practice is called taqiyya)... the fact that millions of Muslims around the world support terror, and are far more likely to get out on the street and protest someone drawing a cartoon of Mohammad than they are to protest against all the video footage of Muslims, including children, being involved in the hacking off of kafir heads, is a *massive* reason for concern.

The fact that millions of Muslims believe in their book in a way that Christians no longer believe in theirs - when that book calls for genocide, and the death and/or enslavement of all kafirs, and tells the Muslim they must fight jihad until there is "no more unbelief, and all worship is for allah alone" should be a concern.

Also, the fact that many Muslim leaders in the west call for the implementation of Sharia law in the west (a thing that they actually *must do* according to the koran), is cause for concern too, and, the fact that many of them say one thing in English, and an entirely different thing in Arabic, should be a worry to people.

And finally, the only Muslim guy I am aware of that spoke out against Islamic terror in any major way, was an American doctor. He was subsequently kicked out of his mosque, and drawn as a dog in Islamic media - that tells us way too much about the thoughts of 'moderate Islam' I think...

Still, having said all that, I do not think hating them is useful, but being on guard is essential. There is no doubt that Islam is a potential threat.

It is a simple equation really.

If the majority of Muslims are Muslim in the way westerners are Christian, the threat is small.

If however, Muslims are Muslim in any meaningful sense, they are a real threat. The fact that Islamic states are fundamentalist, or, moving toward fundamentalism, shows that there faith is not nominal. It does not make them a real threat, but it certainly makes them a potentially real one...
sister_of_mercy On March 11, 2015




London, United Kingdom
#63New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 21:46:06
@bob_the_fisherman Said



Also, the fact that jihad is a pillar of Islam, and they say that it is not, or, that it only means 'struggle', when it *actually* does mean, "killing or going to war in the cause of allah" is a cause for concern.




Jihad is NOT one of the Pillars actually. There are five of them. These are:

Zakah- Being charitable
Sawm- Period of fasting during Ramadan
Shahadah- Reciting the faith
Salah- Prayer 5x a day
Hajj- Pilgrimage to Mecca

No mention of jihad there.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#64New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:02:17
@sister_of_mercy Said

Jihad is NOT one of the Pillars actually. There are five of them. These are:

Zakah- Being charitable
Sawm- Period of fasting during Ramadan
Shahadah- Reciting the faith
Salah- Prayer 5x a day
Hajj- Pilgrimage to Mecca

No mention of jihad there.


Yes, you may noticed I prefaced this by pointing out that this lie that jihad is not a pillar of Islam is foisted upon us - however, it actually is a pillar of Islam. I have been through this before.

Al-Hilali & Khan - respected Muslims scholars that wrote one of the most widely accepted versions of the koran wrote that Al-jihad, holy fighting in allah's cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) , is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of the pillars on which it stands. By Jihad Islam is established, allah's word is made superior, and his religion is propagated. By abandoning jihad (may allah protect us from that), islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honour is lost, their lands are stolen; their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of the hypocrite.

Of course, this annotated version of the koran is old - well and truly pre-9/11. Mention of jihad as a pillar of Islam seems to have become pretty scarce since 9/11. I put it down to taqiyya, more so that a new understanding of Islam... I could be wrong though. It may be that after believing in jihad as a pillar of Islam for 1300 years, Muslims realised post 9/11 that it meant something else, but I have doubts...
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#65New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:25:32
@TheMuse Said

Maybe no one is answering your question because no one feels that being Muslim is bad.



Let me see if I can explain it to you this way.

I have some white friends that bought a house a few hundred miles west of Flint MI, the house was built in 1849 and is a historical building because it was part of the underground railroad. My friends decided that the house has such historical meaning for for the black race that they are spending 10's of thousands of dollars to restore it to it original glory.

Now what if...my white friends had decided that the house only has meaning for the black communality and they were white so they tore the house down bulldozed the land over and built a monument to the white slave owners. in which only white could use.

Please tell me, would you still feel the same way that you do?

Its their land and their house, they can do what ever they wanted too by law...but just because they can, doesn't mean they should.



Personally, i'am not one to hold ANY land that doesn't legally belong to me in any special regard in that way. If a person bought a piece of land that was used in the past as let's say an underground railroad for slaves...and they build something on that property that was what they wanted...well they have a legal right to do it! It truly wouldn't bother me because being half black and half white....I have family members who have owned slaves. Not something i'am proud of, but it is what it is! I just don't hold public or private property in that high regard as other I guess. I dislike what the kkk stands for, but I can't do anything about it now can I?
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#66New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:29:40
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I cannot answer for all the Americans. But, the fact that any true Muslim wants to see every Jew killed, and indeed, *must want* to be involved in the killing of every Jew, is a cause for distrust - genocidal individuals throughout history have generally been a little on the bad side. (To verify this, type into Google the following - before that day, even the stones behind which a Jew is hiding will cry out 'Oh! Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me. Cut his head off.

Also, the fact that jihad is a pillar of Islam, and they say that it is not, or, that it only means 'struggle', when it *actually* does mean, "killing or going to war in the cause of allah" is a cause for concern.

The fact that most Muslims lie and and say "Islam means peace" when, in fact, it does not mean that at all, is interesting (it means submission - slm pronounced "salam" means peace, not slm pronounced Islam)... also, every Muslim - if indeed he/she is a Muslim, knows that genocide is a part of their basic tenet of belief, yet they tell us that Islam means peace - I do not see how "peace" and "genocide" fit together... but, maybe I am wrong, maybe one can be desiring to be involved in genocide, yet at he same time be peaceful. I am not sure how though...

The fact that the koran calls on all Muslims to fight in jihad, and to kill or enslave all the kafirs (see Surah 9.5 - or, Surah 9 generally, really), is certainly cause for concern.

The koran tells Muslims that they cannot be friends with kafirs, but that they can lie to us by pretending to be our friend (this practice is called taqiyya)... the fact that millions of Muslims around the world support terror, and are far more likely to get out on the street and protest someone drawing a cartoon of Mohammad than they are to protest against all the video footage of Muslims, including children, being involved in the hacking off of kafir heads, is a *massive* reason for concern.

The fact that millions of Muslims believe in their book in a way that Christians no longer believe in theirs - when that book calls for genocide, and the death and/or enslavement of all kafirs, and tells the Muslim they must fight jihad until there is "no more unbelief, and all worship is for allah alone" should be a concern.

Also, the fact that many Muslim leaders in the west call for the implementation of Sharia law in the west (a thing that they actually *must do* according to the koran), is cause for concern too, and, the fact that many of them say one thing in English, and an entirely different thing in Arabic, should be a worry to people.

And finally, the only Muslim guy I am aware of that spoke out against Islamic terror in any major way, was an American doctor. He was subsequently kicked out of his mosque, and drawn as a dog in Islamic media - that tells us way too much about the thoughts of 'moderate Islam' I think...

Still, having said all that, I do not think hating them is useful, but being on guard is essential. There is no doubt that Islam is a potential threat.

It is a simple equation really.

If the majority of Muslims are Muslim in the way westerners are Christian, the threat is small.

If however, Muslims are Muslim in any meaningful sense, they are a real threat. The fact that Islamic states are fundamentalist, or, moving toward fundamentalism, shows that there faith is not nominal. It does not make them a real threat, but it certainly makes them a potentially real one...



Great reply, thanks.....but ALL Muslims aren't alike are they? I'am a Christian and have a deep personal relationship with God as "I" understand him.....i'am sure my understanding of God id NOT the same as say another Christian!
Junkyard_Jim On August 30, 2011

Deleted



Norristown, Pennsylvania
#67New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:31:25
@ssnot_me Said

this one? "If President Obama had come out against the masque being built there ...would those on here still be for it??? "

His opinion does not affect mine. I make my own decisions.

That location is one that was avail to use. There is no law, that I know of, to keep anyone from building a mosque there.


But that's not what this is all about. Its not freedom of religion either. Neither the building site or freedom of religion for American Muslims is actually threatened. They can build there, they've already gotten permission. The only thing really stopping them is what stops most projects; lack of money, lack of support, no architect, no viable donations, union crews that don't want to work the project.

Public opinion is important, but secondary here. If the Imam builds at some point, the majority of level-headed people in NYC and the country will accept it. Most people will leave the center alone to do its stated mission. Happy about it? Probably not. Does the building of the center at that location help the general mindset of non-Muslims here if the Imam goes ahead without dialogue and provision of information to those who ask for it to be built further away? No, it won't, but it won't cause a war or a civil war or the maltreatment of American Muslims either. Only the looney tunes on both sides will really react and test the rest of us.

I asked you if you could provide a good answer to The Muse's analogy further back in this thread. Don't worry about it, we're not getting anywhere anyway. There are those of us who want the project owners to listen, provide some information, hopefully build a little further from Ground Zero. Then there are those of us who feel the Imam should exercise his right to build any place he chooses without consideration to the victims' families and without having to provide any information he chooses not to provide.

As I've said before, we may all be barking up the wrong tree, because the Imam does not own all the property needed and he has no funding to boot.
Junkyard_Jim On August 30, 2011

Deleted



Norristown, Pennsylvania
#68New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:32:34
@SparklyKatie Said

Look, if Glenn Beck and other muppets of his ilk are allowed to spout their hatred I don't think a premature announcement of a building that isn't fully funded yet is much of a concern.


How in the world does that equate to what is happening between the Imam, his chosen site, proximity to Ground Zero and the people of NYC??

Glenn Beck cannot speak for the Imam and provide accurate information to concerned citizens regarding the Cordoba Initiative's project. Only the Imam Rauf and his team can do that and choose not to so far. Of course it is a concern. How could it not be? What has Glenn Beck to do with any of this? He and the "ilk" as you refer to them can only provide conjecture. I have not seen any news stories where Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or others have called for anyone to hate American Muslims or any other Muslims for that matter.
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#69New Post! Aug 25, 2010 @ 22:34:20
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I cannot answer for all the Americans. But, the fact that any true Muslim wants to see every Jew killed, and indeed, *must want* to be involved in the killing of every Jew, is a cause for distrust - genocidal individuals throughout history have generally been a little on the bad side. (To verify this, type into Google the following - before that day, even the stones behind which a Jew is hiding will cry out 'Oh! Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me. Cut his head off.

Also, the fact that jihad is a pillar of Islam, and they say that it is not, or, that it only means 'struggle', when it *actually* does mean, "killing or going to war in the cause of allah" is a cause for concern.

The fact that most Muslims lie and and say "Islam means peace" when, in fact, it does not mean that at all, is interesting (it means submission - slm pronounced "salam" means peace, not slm pronounced Islam)... also, every Muslim - if indeed he/she is a Muslim, knows that genocide is a part of their basic tenet of belief, yet they tell us that Islam means peace - I do not see how "peace" and "genocide" fit together... but, maybe I am wrong, maybe one can be desiring to be involved in genocide, yet at he same time be peaceful. I am not sure how though...

The fact that the koran calls on all Muslims to fi
lolzwut On February 12, 2016

Deleted



Peace,Luv,Unity,Respect,
#70New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 00:46:23
@SparklyKatie Said

I think he just appears on their toast.



Junkyard_Jim On August 30, 2011

Deleted



Norristown, Pennsylvania
#71New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 02:40:28
Apologies for posting this here, but I thought it was an important piece of information since this thread has had a lot of input from the pro - con ground zero mosque posters. I also posted this on the appropriate threads that exist.

OK, part of the argument is that a true mosque is not being built at the proposed site a short distance from Ground Zero. However, an ad placed in the "Islamic Finder" by the project leader for 51Park, the building rep for Imam Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative, is actively stating the center will be able to accommodate at least 1000 worshippers.

Now lets put that in perspective of the occupancy of most churches or other religious sites, a thousand worshippers in one section of the building at the same time. That's pretty darn big. Sounds a little more like a mosque to me than a "prayer room". To pray in jamat means collectively or at the same time.

Heres the link: https://islamicfinder.org/getitWorld.php?id=102115&lang=english

I'll post this on the other few threads that have had an interest in the subject. This is all part of the problem with this whole thing. The Imam and project team say one thing, then an ad placed in an Islamic publication or website by one of the center's project leaders for consumption of Islamic worshippers shows a whole different picture.

Please try and convince me that a thousand worshippers in one location, up to 5 times daily, is not more than a simple prayer room. These people continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
crazylikeafox On June 02, 2017




McKinney, Texas
#72New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 06:48:49
@SparklyKatie Said

Because conservatives need an enemy to hate, 50's to 90's it was the 'Commies' now it's the Muslims.


You forget Liberals hated Commies just as much as Conservatives. Don't try to pretend 1 side is better regarding "needing an enemy to hate". In this, all groups humans consider themselves a part of are equally guilty.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#73New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 06:58:51
@Spinkiegirl Said

Great reply, thanks.....but ALL Muslims aren't alike are they? I'am a Christian and have a deep personal relationship with God as "I" understand him.....i'am sure my understanding of God id NOT the same as say another Christian!


Are all Muslims desirous of being involved in genocide? Probably not. But, any *real* Muslims absolutely has to be - it is necessary, in order to be a Muslim that you desire this. The koran makes it perfectly clear that disobedience to allah and his prophet, is to face the wrath of allah for not being a true Muslim.

To that extent, very Muslim desires genocide, and desires active participation in genocide. It is a pre-requisite for their faith. Again, not all Muslims desire it - however, many of them do. And, many of those that do desire it, will lie to us, because they are allowed if not commanded to, by their religion. Also, Mohammad demonstrated the utility of the lie (taqiyya) in his wars with kafirs. He would say 'peace' whilst plotting war, as they are allowed to do this.

There are passive forms of Islam, that is true, however, the aggressive form is the main evangelising one to other Muslims (in terms of evangelising Muslims to accept a more legitimate, or fundamental approach to Islam), and to kafirs, in terms of, if not seeking to convert us, certainly seeking actively to kill or enslave us.

As I say - the threat is proportionate to how many Muslims hold a 'real' faith. If the number is high, the danger is high - the fact that most Islamic countries are fundamentalist, suggests the numbers are high. I hope I am wrong, but I do not know how I could be...
SparklyKatie On March 07, 2014
\m//O_O\\m/





Sheffield, United Kingdom
#74New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 07:05:57
@crazylikeafox Said

You forget Liberals hated Commies just as much as Conservatives. Don't try to pretend 1 side is better regarding "needing an enemy to hate". In this, all groups humans consider themselves a part of are equally guilty.


Sorry should I have said 'Americans' instead of 'conservatives'?

My mistake.
crazylikeafox On June 02, 2017




McKinney, Texas
#75New Post! Aug 26, 2010 @ 07:16:06
@SparklyKatie Said

Sorry should I have said 'Americans' instead of 'conservatives'?

My mistake.


Sure, if you want to ignore the fact Canada and England were just as paranoid. You shouldn't have made it sound like Conservatism needs enemies to hate to begin with. Certainly not when every other group goes through the same exact thinking.
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