Two Spirit: The Story of a Movement Unfolds

@boxer Said

Suggesting that cross-dressers are the same thing as gay men and lesbians is offensive.

Just sayin'

American indians thought that drag queens were cool then, and lots of people in cities and towns think they're cool now, but to suggest that they're representative of gays and lesbians is wrong.

@boxer Said
American indians thought that drag queens were cool then, and lots of people in cities and towns think they're cool now, but to suggest that they're representative of gays and lesbians is wrong.

@white_swan53 Said

It was a thread that the native American Two spirits and the gay and lesbian community was mentioned in the same context that got my curiosity up to go look for info on the Two- spirit people being talked about.

Is that how you came to make a connection as to where or when these comparisons were made that you are talking about ? If so,I can assure that making comparisons was not my intention .

Who suggested that cross dressers represent the gay and lesbian community? It is my understanding that most cross dressers are not heterosexual . Is this wrong ?
Isn't the phrase 'drag queen' just as insulting and offensive to those people who are cross dressers , as some of the insults used to describe gays and lesbians ?
I stated in the OP that I am heterosexual so my questions are serious .

@psycoskunk Said

With all due respect boxer, the Natives didn't do it because they 'thought drag queens were cool.' There was a spiritual/cultural aspect to it. A lot of 'Two-spirited' First Nations people were held in high esteem in their respective communities and usually were the shamans, the medicine-people or in some cases even the Chiefs of their respective tribes. The reason why they're held in such a regard is because they were thought to be more in tune with nature and the spirits as a whole because they could relate and identify with both genders. Obviously, not all of the First Nations felt this way, but quite a few tribes did and as such, they were more tolerant and understanding towards those who were 'Two-spirited' (a.k.a homosexual).

This practice/belief has been going on long before Canada as a country existed, long before America as a country existed and even longer than England as a country existed. To say that the First Nations were doing it solely because they thought drag queens were cool is not only a completely inaccurate statement, but also a bit offensive.

@boxer Said

With all due respect, describing gay men as being more in tune with nature because they could relate and identify with both genders is not only an inaccurate statement, but also a bit offensive.

@boxer Said

Suggesting that cross-dressers are the same thing as gay men and lesbians is offensive.

Just sayin'

American indians thought that drag queens were cool then, and lots of people in cities and towns think they're cool now, but to suggest that they're representative of gays and lesbians is wrong.

@psycoskunk Said

Again, this is what the First Nations believed, and as they were more about worshiping nature and their surroundings as opposed to a monotheistic deity of some sort (that's not to say that the First Nations didn't also have a 'Creator' they prayed to, but they also prayed to animal spirits like Raven, Bear, Wolf, Orca, etc...), it only stand to reason that a person who is like that would've been considered to be more in touch with spirits. You can't necessarily fault a collective civilization which predates the modern world by more than 1000 years for their beliefs involving a certain group of people because it doesn't follow today's PC terminology. That'd be like me taking offense to a slave owner calling my great-great grandfather a nigger almost 130 years ago and then tracking down his ancestors and telling them he was wrong to say that.

Simply put, it's more or less their interpretation of what it meant to be 'Two-spirited.' And again, this is a belief that's been around a really long time. Does that make it true? Obviously not.

There are some people who believe a magical talking snake tricked two naked people into eating some fruit and then a voice from above said "You know what?! f*** you! I'm kicking you out of Paradise!!!" and then somehow their kids were able to have kids without them turning into inbred piles of mush.

There are some people who believe an elderly man with a walking stick made an entire ocean split in two so that he could lead the Hebrew people to a hill where he got a list of 10 "Unbreakable Rules" from the same guy who told the naked peeps to f*** off, only to return to find an orgy going on in front of a golden ox statue they somehow managed to build in a few days.

There are some people who believe that a magical black rock from Heaven crashed into the earth and every year, hundreds of thousands of people come from all over the world to worship and adore the mystical Heaven rock, which totally couldn't possibly be a meteorite, and whose most extreme of followers believe that they need to kill anyone who doesn't believe in their mystical Heaven rock.

Do any of these beliefs hold up scientifically? Hell no! Do people still believe them? Hell yes! Can anyone say for certain what can/can't be believed? Of course not. That'd be fascism.

@DiscordTiger Said

sexuality and gender are not interchangeable

@shinobinoz Said

I'm thinking people are using sexual orientation & gender identity here to discuss the variability that make up human beings.

@DiscordTiger Said

Words mean things and when they are used wrong it can be offensive.

@boxer Said

"two spirit" peoples are often described as being "half male, half female" or a male who dresses as a female, or much less often a female who dresses like a male.

None of these three "types" accurately describes the lgbt community. If you want to know what gay and lesbian people look like, go somewhere that has a bunch of people, because we look like, and act like everyone else.

And, if you're a man who dresses as a woman for entertainment then "drag queen" is perfectly acceptable and appropriate. If you're a man who dresses like a woman for your own pleasure, you're a cross dresser, and it's nearly 100% certain that you're going to be heterosexual.

@shinobinoz Said

I'm thinking people are using sexual orientation & gender identity here to discuss the variability that make up human beings.

In fact some people have "interchangeable" parts so they might just....... Just goes to show that the First Nations that had multiple genders (as well as sexual orientations) who were not only seen as regular people but even respected & very often are leaders making lives more comfortable for all.