@dookie Said 
So not a father as an earthly father is?
I think the point is important i.e. that we are indeed ALL children of God. If such is not the fundamental reality then we must end with a salvation of works, however subtle such a "works" may seem.
"Salvation" - as I see it - is a
realization of that which eternally IS, NOT the result of a choice that determines whether we are "saved" or not.
Namu Amida Butsu!
Here is the Pure Land Buddhist perspective, speaking of the teaching of Shinran, one of the "founding fathers" of Pure land Buddhism......
According to Shinran, salvation is entirely a matter of the Vow* (Grace). It does not hang on events and conditions of time and space, or the imposition of man and society. Salvation cannot rest on chance factors. Shinran makes it clear that the reality of Grace requires nothing from the side of man, including the act of faith, as the causal basis for birth in the Pure Land. Otherwise the emphasis on the Vow (Grace) would be devoid of meaning and significance. Our residual karmic bondage may influence the point in our experience when we become aware of Amida's compassion, but it is not a factor in determining whether or not we actually receive that compassion.
We are suggesting that from the standpoint of Grace (the Vow) all are equally saved even now, despite the presence or absence of the experience of faith itself. The reason for this is that salvation depends on Grace and not on any finite condition.
Someone may ask then what is the point of being religious, if we are saved in any case? This is an important question. However, it reflects the virtually universal notion that religion is a means to an end. We get the benefit of salvation from being religious. For Shinran, however, religion becomes the way to express gratitude for the compassion that supports all our life. It is not a tool for ego advancement or gaining benefits.
The point of being religious for Shinran is that when we come to have faith in the Original Vow (Grace) and live in its light, we truly become free to live a full and meaningful existence in this life.
Shinran's perspective permits a person to see deeply into their life to detect the springs of compassion which sustains it; it allows them to participate and associate with all types of people despite their unattractiveness or difficulty because they understand the potentiality that works in their very being. In perceiving the compassion that embraces all life, the person of faith can themselves become an expression of that compassion touching the lives of others.
All just offered in the interests of Inter-Faith dialogue.
Just to add in relation to the above and because of a few points raised by others in the last few posts.........About our love in relation to institutionalised religion, irrespective of whether love is a verb, a noun or anything inbetween.
Not seeking to dumb down but as often others say they do not understand a word I post (
), one can see Institutionalised religion as claiming something along the lines of "If you say the word "phonutisalition" before you die you will be saved." Thus "love"
- or rather "true" love - becomes for that religion inevitable associated with seeking to get others to say the word - otherwise it would not be true love. The point of loving another purely for their own sake is lost.
One can see this played out in the Inquisition. The logic is perfect. Only by believing a certain theology can one be saved. Any other belief is of no use. Therefore those who do not have the orthodox belief are doomed to eternal torment. Therefore to burn them is a loving option. Why? Simply because 1) they will burn eternally anyway so what difference does a few more minutes make? 2) If left alive and able to live with others they could corrupt them and thus cause their damnation, and 3) the possibility that when, in feeling the flames, they come to see the error of their ways, they just might "repent" and thus enjoy an eternity of joy rather than torment.
As I see it- and others are obviously free to think otherwise - the only reason we no longer have any form of Inquisitional situation is twofold....One, no religion (or denomination) really has the power to impose itself as it once was able to, and two, at heart, most people don't really believe in it anymore with such certainty and ardour.
But the real point - at least as I see it - is that those who claim that "true" Christians would never act in the ways that they HAVE INDEED ACTED throughout history are missing the point entirely. Quite frankly, to just quote a few verses from the Bible that tell us to "love one another" and because of this to claim that such acts perpetrated in the past were sub-christian is a misguided claim.
If a creed claims that to be saved one must say the magic word, then TRUE love is to get others to say the word.
Anyway, my apologies. Perhaps I now have too much time on my hands.
Sep 09, 2013 @ 21:32:57
