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harrow council use 'lie detector test' on applicants for benefits?

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wildething On February 04, 2008




, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:18:03
on the news this morning i was rather shocked to hear a piece about harrow council using a 'lie detector test' over the phone for anyone applying for benefit. apparently the voice of the applicant is tested over the phone via computer where it can be detected if they person speaking is in a 'high risk' category, which means they are probably lying and so should be investigated. so where is the problem there? you might ask, after all benefit fraud is costing the tax payer an increasing amount of money every year, but just hang on a minute, it was also mentioned that this lie detector scheme might soon be used by banks and insurance companies as well as other establishments. now i don't know about you but i definitely don't like the idea of being given a lie detector test when i need to claim on my insurance or get a loan from the bank. in my opinion this is 'big brother' gone bonkers.
and in any case an expert polygrapher, who uses the more traditional lie detector tests for the police, jeremy kyle etc., said that he didn't think it was a very successful way of measuring if a person is lying or not. as for me, if i knew i was being tested i am sure that my voice would sound very dodgy. i really don't like the sound of this at all.
alexkidd On February 07, 2012
Captain Awesome!


Deleted



in a bog, Ireland
#2New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:20:44
voice lie detectors are completly unreliable,
especially over the phone.
wildething On February 04, 2008




, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:26:03
yeah, and my voice is dodgy face to face.
it doesn't matter whether i am lying or not i always look and sound guilty if i think someone suspects me of something.
once a policewoman came to the door asking if i knew anything about a house that had been burgled two houses away from us, she wasn't accusing me of anything but i just went bright red and started babbling incoherently.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#4New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:29:13
It sounds like they are using it to screen people who should have further scrutiny.

As long as they aren't relying on it to determine benefits, and only using it as a tool to decide who to look at more closely, I don't see a problem with it.
bendover On November 25, 2007

Deleted



Muff, Ireland
#5New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:36:15
Any tool used to stop fraud is a good thing. How effective this tool is at indication cases worthy of additional scrutiny has yet to be accessed.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#6New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:39:20
If they start noticing a significant portion of the people they investigate due to lie detector readings are in fact committing fraud, that's huge news and good for them.

If their previous methods resulted in 5% of investigations leading to fraud exposure, and lie detector investigations result in a 10% fraud exposure rate, they've doubled the number of fraudsters they've caught.

They obviously realize that a simple telephone lie detector is absolutely not enough to prove that someone is committing fraud, but they're also obviously hoping that it is a good enough predictor to enable them to find more fraudsters.
wildething On February 04, 2008




, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:40:17
but looking at this from a civil rights angle, should any council be using a tool which implies by its very usage that the applicant is suspected of lying at the onset, without any prior proof that this might be the case, should it not be only used when suspicion about an applicant has already been aroused. otherwise it becomes a case of 'guilty until proven innocent'.
bendover On November 25, 2007

Deleted



Muff, Ireland
#8New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:44:42
From the human rights angle should banks have the right to lock their safes?
They are implying we would take their money.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#9New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:46:03
@wildething Said
but looking at this from a civil rights angle, should any council be using a tool which implies by its very usage that the applicant is suspected of lying at the onset, without any prior proof that this might be the case, should it not be only used when suspicion about an applicant has already been aroused. otherwise it becomes a case of 'guilty until proven innocent'.

That is an interesting point. I didn't realize that we were talking about a governmental body.

I'd say it's tough. I personally think that it's not a violation of rights because the test itself couldn't be used against you in a court of law, the results of the test cannot be stored in a database to be tested against future crimes (like DNA or fingerprints can), and benefits agents no doubt have certain training in recognizing suspicious activity or liars already, making this little gadget a simple extension of something that is already being done.

If you've read any of my posts, I'm pretty big on individual rights and civil liberties.
markfox01 On October 23, 2021
innit!





Welshman in Brum.., United Kin
#10New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:50:29
Lie detector tests are not legal in court. the voice ones are even worse. Yes they can detect something is wrong with your voice, but it can not detect what that said thing is, so if your steeped in guilt from something you have done, from steeling sweeties to killing someone, the voice detector can not know that.. so how it will know your lieing in your inssurance claim..
markfox01 On October 23, 2021
innit!





Welshman in Brum.., United Kin
#11New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:51:22
@jonnythan Said
That is an interesting point. I didn't realize that we were talking about a governmental body.

I'd say it's tough. I personally think that it's not a violation of rights because the test itself couldn't be used against you in a court of law, the results of the test cannot be stored in a database to be tested against future crimes (like DNA or fingerprints can), and benefits agents no doubt have certain training in recognizing suspicious activity or liars already, making this little gadget a simple extension of something that is already being done.

If you've read any of my posts, I'm pretty big on individual rights and civil liberties.


Im sitting right next to a person that worked for the benifits office just last year, and she informs me that no one is trained in detecting lies.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#12New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:51:45
@markfox01 Said
Lie detector tests are not legal in court. the voice ones are even worse. Yes they can detect something is wrong with your voice, but it can not detect what that said thing is, so if your steeped in guilt from something you have done, from steeling sweeties to killing someone, the voice detector can not know that.. so how it will know your lieing in your inssurance claim..


*sigh*

It doesn't "know" if you're lying. It can indicate that someone is likely to be lying, which helps the auditors decide who to investigate further.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#13New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:53:16
@markfox01 Said
Im sitting right next to a person that worked for the benifits office just last year, and she informs me that no one is trained in detecting lies.

Might not have explicit training in it, but ask her if it was part of anyone's job to identify suspicious cases or to do anything like recommend people to investigate.

They clearly investigate possible cases of fraud, so *someone* has to identify who to investigate.
markfox01 On October 23, 2021
innit!





Welshman in Brum.., United Kin
#14New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:54:20
@jonnythan Said
*sigh*

It doesn't "know" if you're lying. It can indicate that someone is likely to be lying, which helps the auditors decide who to investigate further.


"likely to be lieing" and "lieing" are 2 different things..
wildething On February 04, 2008




, United Kingdom
#15New Post! Sep 26, 2007 @ 13:55:11
hey jonnythan you really don't know how our local councils work, which is generally a bit of a misnomer, i mean most local councils don't work, they overspend on projects that never get off the ground, they push around bits of paper until they lose them, and they are constantly charging too much council tax. so what did you say about these people being 'trained', if they were trained at all i would rather they were trained in managing the publics purse.
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