Western Civilization is Dying.

[This one is for Bob F.]

The Sky Western Civilization is Falling Dying

We hit an iceberg and are sinking.... doom is upon us... turn to our salvation (aka The Donald) while we still have hope!

That poor Bob needs to get a life.

If we (the world) Trumpie I think we we are doomed for sure.

Perhaps the USA is, with our overexpenditure at the expense of the underprivileged, but I don't think Western Civilization is specifically. Democracy is here to stay.

Not that it really matters in the long run the way we are all burning this planet.

I believe the Western experiment will collapse. Eventually the world will need centralized power.

Super Genius!

"Hello my name is mud."

Survivor 2000 -2017

Sad attempt at humour aside the west has one or two little problems.

But first I suppose we should start by laying aside some obvious issues just in the interests of trying to stop this discussion from being completely pointless in all ways.

A question, monsignor Chaski.

Has any dynasty, empire or culture ever collapsed, fallen or been reduced to a shadow of its former self in human history?

As I said to Chaski I think for this discussion to be worthwhile we should clear up some issues first, but the highlighted comment is interesting. It certainly seems to encapsulate something of the western zeitgeist. Whether it is a good sign that a particular culture thinks its existence is killing the planet or not is a point we could probably discuss a bit later.

Also, as you have noted western debt levels are unsustainable by and large. At some point a major economic shift will probably be required. Although, as that will reign in the number of women who marry the state it will actually benefit western nations considerably.

I suspect the anti-white or white guilt thing will have to be addressed too at some point. This may fit in with the broader "we are killing the entire world" idea, but I think it probably requires its own separate analysis.

And then there is democracy. This merits discussion too I think. I believe democracy requires certain things to function - a large pool of voters who are not self centred and egotistical, overly pampered, self important, far too privileged and sheltered from reality would be just one of them. Government accountability and transparency would be another. Voters who understand, take an interest in and have reasonable (if disparate) political opinions would be another. Voters who are aware of the fact that the world is not a nice, safe, happy, friendly, tolerant place would be a crucial one. I am unsure that many if any western nations (EU, UK, USA, NZ and Australia) necessarily meet those criteria though. So this should be something we consider too if we are going to discuss the west's continued viability.

I have little doubt that the west is in its death throes, if not dead. I could be wrong though.

Yes. The Roman Empire is an example and Christianity was most likely the iceberg.

ok. So we have established that empires collapse. Therefore, you and I necessarily agree that it is possible for an empire to collapse. This is good.

Is the collapse of empires and dynasties atypical?

By this I mean, do most empires that ever existed still exist today, or, have quite a lot of them fallen over time? (This is important as it will help us gain some idea about the degree of possibility of collapse). If most empires that once existed still exist then this would suggest the collapse of empires is rare and that therefore, as a prima facie case, the west is more likely not to fall - we can get into vagaries later. This is only about setting parameters. I am not arguing that the west will fall because other empires fall. Instead, I am only suggesting that if it is common for empires to eventually collapse that this is relevant to the probability of the west collapsing.

Are you trying to equate all of Western culture, a culture (or set of cultures) has been evolving for thousands of years, with ancient empires?

No. I was specifically not doing that.

My point is, if pretty much every major empire of the past has collapsed, then this does show that as a rule, empires collapse.

However, if, on the other hand, most empires are still around this would suggest that empires are unlikely to collapase.

This is only about establishing a prima facie case on probability using past historical precedence. I am not saying the west is like any other culture - although I think it is fair to say that people are people. but we could look at that type of thing later though. This is only about laying a very basic framework for a look at western culture. There is no sophistry or tricks being employed... believe it or not