Uncle Joe is coming for your guns!

chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#46

Mar 23, 2021 @ 16:33:59

@4d4m Said

I think our Federal gun control laws are fine the way they are. As such I do not support any of the control measures that have recently been presented by the left including limiting magazine capacities or increased back ground checks.

The right presented of those measures in the past.

>>> The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act (or Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB)) 1994. <<<

Are you against that. even though it used to be an issue the Republicans supported?

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#47

Mar 23, 2021 @ 16:45:29

Side note:

Contrary to some beliefs, laws like "gun control laws" are NOT about "stopping" bad guys and are not about taking guns away from law abiding citizens.

Gun control laws are primarily about...

1. Making it more difficult for bad guys to legally obtain guns.

Very few politicians are stupid enough to actually think that gun control laws are going to stop criminals from obtaining weapons.

2. (Sometimes) making it more difficult for law abiding citizens to obtain certain types of guns.

Some people agree with this goal, while some do not.

3. Punishment of criminals.

This is the primary reason for gun control laws. They help law enforcement find and catch bad guys (not all but many), and help our legal system punish criminals who use firearms to commit crime.

The "deterrent" value of these types of laws is minimal and primarily idealistic political rhetoric.

No body has to "like" or support gun control laws.

However, the pretense that gun control is about "taking our guns" is a lie and people who believe it are full on ignorant.

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Edited: March 23, 2021 @ 16:46

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#48

Mar 23, 2021 @ 19:57:36

@mrmhead Said

What would a responsible gun owner need a high capacity magazine for?
Or why should a responsible future gun owner be afraid of a more thorough background check?

You'd think responsible gun owners would be happy to flush out the irresponsible people that give gun owners a bad name.

Unless you think there should be no restrictions on irresponsible people.

At the risk of sounding like a radical. The original Bill of Rights has one common theme; protecting citizens from the possibility of a future ruled by tyrants. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom Against Unwarranted Searches etc. Every single one of them is about resisting tyrannical regimes. Why does anyone think the 2nd Amendment is any different? The Right to Bear Arms isn't about criminals, it's about your government.

That is why there are people opposed to background checks and weapons registration - they don't believe the government has the right to log down who has what kinds of weapons. The same is the case for limited capacity magazines and etc. You get the point. If a Hitler were to try to take over this country those people would resist.

This difference in philosophy is the main reason the left can't figure out how to talk to the right on the issue.

I'm a centrist so I figure out both sides.

The best answer to a random crazy with a rifle at the grocery is me happening to be there shopping with my concealed weapons permit and my Sig.

There are background checks on purchasing weapons and it is illegal for someone to own weapons who have violent criminal backgrounds and are mentally unstable. From what I've read so far from interviews with Alissa's family he wasn't mentally stable. Who's responsibility is it to make sure this gets reported? His family, his school, his mosque....

The other question is would that prevent him from obtaining weapons? The US Sentencing Commission reports that in the year 2012 5,768 felons were convicted of "being a felon in possession of a firearm." Keep in mind those are the guys who got caught.

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Edited: March 23, 2021 @ 20:08

mrmhead

NE, Ohio

#49

Mar 23, 2021 @ 20:32:44

@4d4m Said

At the risk of sounding like a radical. The original Bill of Rights has one common theme; protecting citizens from the possibility of a future ruled by tyrants. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom Against Unwarranted Searches etc. Every single one of them is about resisting tyrannical regimes. Why does anyone think the 2nd Amendment is any different? The Right to Bear Arms isn't about criminals, it's about your government.

That is why there are people opposed to background checks and weapons registration - they don't believe the government has the right to log down who has what kinds of weapons. The same is the case for limited capacity magazines and etc. You get the point. If a Hitler were to try to take over this country those people would resist.

This difference in philosophy is the main reason the left can't figure out how to talk to the right on the issue.

I'm a centrist so I figure out both sides.

The best answer to a random crazy with a rifle at the grocery is me happening to be there shopping with my concealed weapons permit and my Sig.

There are background checks on purchasing weapons and it is illegal for someone to own weapons who have violent criminal backgrounds and are mentally unstable. From what I've read so far from interviews with Alissa's family he wasn't mentally stable. Who's responsibility is it to make sure this gets reported? His family, his school, his mosque....

The other question is would that prevent him from obtaining weapons? The US Sentencing Commission reports that in the year 2012 5,768 felons were convicted of "being a felon in possession of a firearm." Keep in mind those are the guys who got caught.

The logistics of collecting all registered guns is pretty much impossible.

Current background checks have holes and flaws on a state-by-state basis.
Although This is a report from 2020 (check page 7) , I believe I've heard this is still the case.

Then another good guy with a gun sees you shooting and pulls out his weapon and shoots at you as more good guys with guns mistake others as bad guys, then the authorities show up with everyone shooting at everyone. They'll shoot first and ask questions later.
Good plan!

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4d4m

4dforum.org,

#50

Mar 24, 2021 @ 02:35:44

@mrmhead Said

Then another good guy with a gun sees you shooting and pulls out his weapon and shoots at you as more good guys with guns mistake others as bad guys, then the authorities show up with everyone shooting at everyone. They'll shoot first and ask questions later.
Good plan!

Well the idea comes from living in some rural areas. Believe it or not there are places in this country where the nearest deputy is a 30 minute drive away. The fire department is made up of volunteers. If you get in a wreck they show up in their personal vehicles and whoever was closest to the fire department building stopped by to get the truck. At the small store or bar you go to may very well be a pistol behind the counter. People in those places rely on each other, not on the establishment.

Watching the news videos from the shooting in Boulder I noticed a few things.
There were over 100 cops.
I saw cops hanging on the outside of MRAP (mine protected vehicles)
There were some guys with a big shield they were hiding behind
They were sporting some pretty fancy firearms
They were all outside of the building

In the case of an active shooter who is not taking hostages you go in there and kill him, and you save lives. The large number of police are surrounding the place, evacuating people and I get that.

But, if you were the first officer on the scene and you knew the guy was walking around in there killing people, what would you do?

If you were an armed citizen inside the building and you shot him, then the cops came in, You'd put your weapon down, put your hands behind your head, get on your knees,,, you know the drill. And they would sort it out.

How many lives would have been saved?

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Edited: March 24, 2021 @ 02:52

Darkman666

Saint Louis, Missouri

#51

Mar 24, 2021 @ 04:30:59

@4d4m Said

Well the idea comes from living in some rural areas. Believe it or not there are places in this country where the nearest deputy is a 30 minute drive away. The fire department is made up of volunteers. If you get in a wreck they show up in their personal vehicles and whoever was closest to the fire department building stopped by to get the truck. At the small store or bar you go to may very well be a pistol behind the counter. People in those places rely on each other, not on the establishment.

Watching the news videos from the shooting in Boulder I noticed a few things.
There were over 100 cops.
I saw cops hanging on the outside of MRAP (mine protected vehicles)
There were some guys with a big shield they were hiding behind
They were sporting some pretty fancy firearms
They were all outside of the building

In the case of an active shooter who is not taking hostages you go in there and kill him, and you save lives. The large number of police are surrounding the place, evacuating people and I get that.

But, if you were the first officer on the scene and you knew the guy was walking around in there killing people, what would you do?

If you were an armed citizen inside the building and you shot him, then the cops came in, You'd put your weapon down, put your hands behind your head, get on your knees,,, you know the drill. And they would sort it out.

How many lives would have been saved?

usually, you see in the scene in movies and tv that portrayed a small county town, which normal in a real life. but in movies and tv , the law would corrupt or in mayberry setting that be honest.

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4d4m

4dforum.org,

#52

Mar 24, 2021 @ 18:32:54

LOL

It wasn't Mayberry. But it was rural, very. Hour bus ride to school each way rural. It isn't just that place however, there are other places I've lived or visited for extended periods of time where law enforcement is scarce.

In L.A. one can expect a law enforcement response within a few minutes to a dangerous situation. 97% of the nations area is rural but contains about 19.3% (aprox 60 million) of the country's population( US Census Bureau ). As much as I like former Pres Obama, I will never agree with his assessment on gun control. I think one of the main differences is that he lived in Chicago.

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Edited: March 24, 2021 @ 18:33

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#53

Mar 24, 2021 @ 18:45:40

There is another difference in opinion worth mentioning here, it is the belief in the nature of people in general. I believe people are inherently good. The town I now reside in has a population of about 35,000 and a police force of about 150 officers. That ratio is probably not that uncommon. The reason the officers can conduct their business is because they have a mandate of the people. The town does not descend into a quagmire of gangs and organized crime, not just because there are 150 cops, but because most of the people wouldn't allow that to happen and would assist the officers.

Some people believe mankind is mostly evil. That viewpoint is even sold to us. The Lord of the Flies is an example. The story is about anarchy and death amongst boys marooned on an island. It is based on true events. However, the boys were getting along fine. They had found feral chickens they were getting eggs from and work details to collect food and fire wood. They had even managed to take care of one of the boys who broke his leg.

Why pump children's heads with that kind of bs? Because fear is a powerful weapon. There are forces in our society that want you to be afraid.

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Edited: March 24, 2021 @ 18:54

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#54

Mar 24, 2021 @ 18:50:55

Fox News is reporting the FBI was aware of Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa although the details are scarce.

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mrmhead

NE, Ohio

#55

Mar 25, 2021 @ 01:06:16

To spin back a bit:

@4d4m Said

The best answer to a random crazy with a rifle at the grocery is me happening to be there shopping with my concealed weapons permit and my Sig.

And what part of the proposed bills would prevent you from carrying your concealed weapons permit and your sig?

Would you fail a more scrutinous background check?

Or do you need a high capacity magazine to finally hit your target?

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Darkman666

Saint Louis, Missouri

#56

Mar 25, 2021 @ 01:31:25

@mrmhead Said

To spin back a bit:

And what part of the proposed bills would prevent you from carrying your concealed weapons permit and your sig?

Would you fail a more scrutinous background check?

Or do you need a high capacity magazine to finally hit your target?

forget about the background check, concealed weapons permit, and your sign my name.

i walk down the street with bazooka in my pants. i'll tell the ladies, that see me. i said, " that ain't no banana in my pants! "

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4d4m

4dforum.org,

#57

Mar 25, 2021 @ 04:38:13

@mrmhead Said

To spin back a bit:

And what part of the proposed bills would prevent you from carrying your concealed weapons permit and your sig?

Would you fail a more scrutinous background check?

Or do you need a high capacity magazine to finally hit your target?

The high capacity magazines aren't for protection against criminals. Concealed carry is governed by state law. I wouldn't fail a background check, but the guy in Boulder would have. The FBI had him in their sites, how did he acquire a weapon?

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Darkman666

Saint Louis, Missouri

#58

Mar 25, 2021 @ 05:11:33

to conceal my bazooka in my pants, when i traveling tough the usa and board in my car. when i get to the state line to be inspect in each state, i don't get a boner.

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mrmhead

NE, Ohio

#59

Mar 25, 2021 @ 12:10:15

@4d4m Said

The high capacity magazines aren't for protection against criminals. Concealed carry is governed by state law. I wouldn't fail a background check

So your "Good guy with a gun" scenario won't be impacted with new restrictions.

@4d4m Said

I wouldn't fail a background check, but the guy in Boulder would have. The FBI had him in their sites, how did he acquire a weapon?

Are you saying "Enforce the laws we have"? If so, I can fill in another square on my "Shooter Bingo" card.

And how do you know he would have failed a background check under the current Fed and state laws? Do you know the details of the Colorado firearms sales and background checks?

An example from the article I linked:
Mental Disability. Virginia, a full-participant state under NICS, has a state database that identifies individuals within the state who have mental
health disabilities or have been adjudicated mentally incompetent. This
state database is available only to the Virginia State Police for firearms
background check purposes, and the database cannot be accessed by
other states or the FBI either directly or through the NICS Index.
According to Virginia State Police data for January through September
1999, Virginia's instant check system denied 51 firearms transactions based
on information in the state's mental health database. If the FBI had been
conducting Virginia’s firearms background checks during this time, that
information would not have been accessible to them.

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mrmhead

NE, Ohio

#60

Mar 25, 2021 @ 15:53:58

@4d4m Said

I wouldn't fail a background check, but the guy in Boulder would have. The FBI had him in their sites, how did he acquire a weapon?

Whoops - Wrong again:
Hodgepodge of laws

Colorado is one of four states, along with Indiana, Kentucky and New Hampshire, that rely on the federal umbrella firearm law and don't have a specific state law banning firearm possession by people with a mental illness,
... For federal law to be effective, states have to be compliant and transparent,

And another example:
For example, the gunman who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech in 2007 had been declared mentally ill by a court and ordered to undergo mental health treatment. Under federal law, that should have disqualified him from owning a gun.
But he was able to buy a gun because his treatment was outpatient, and at the time, Virginia state law only disqualified a person if they had been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital. As a result, Virginia never reported him, and he was not flagged in a background check.

Still think existing laws are good enough?

0

Edited: March 25, 2021 @ 15:54

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