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Two Million March In London For Another Vote

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shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#16New Post! Mar 25, 2019 @ 08:50:48
@Jennifer1984 Said

You'll never accept anything that doesn't sit comfortably with your anti-pom hate agenda so I'll go no further than that. The rozzer in the crowd control unit said it was an estimated 2 million and I'll take that.


So asking for evidence of your 2 million claim is proof of an anti pom hate agenda!

Anyway, what your last post was essentially saying was that some un-named copper in the crowd control unit estimated 2 million. A copper that I'm sure doesn't have a name and to whom no quote can be accurately attributed. My isnt that convenient. Now of course because this figure of 2 million is what you want to hear you simply accept it. By the way, it's funny how even the march organisers only claim half the number you do.

On to more credible sources than an un-named copper or the march organisers...

- Keith Still, a Professor of Crowd Science at Manchester Metropolitan University (UK), who by the way has developed mandatory event-monitoring training for police, has analysed the available date and puts the crowd between 312,000 and 400,000 people.
- Eric Kant, a crowd management specialist at Dutch company Phase01 used RAMP analysis to estimate the crowd. He estimates a crowd of between 312,000 and 624,000 people.

So world leading experts in crowd science and management are publicly estimating crowd figures that are not only significantly less than the one you attribute to an un-named source but are indeed significantly lower than that given by organisers. Of course if you bothered to do just a tiny amount of research you would have found this out for yourself and not looked quite so stupid and ignorant as a result.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#17New Post! Mar 25, 2019 @ 08:54:34
@Jennifer1984 Said

We really have become figures of fun all over the continent.

Judging by the results of the recent Dutch elections I suggest that a lot of them arent laughing at the UK.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#18New Post! Mar 26, 2019 @ 13:37:29
@Jennifer1984 Said

I'm just a f***ing British citizen...so I obviously know nothing.



Just because you live in the UK doesn't mean everything you post about the UK is automatically true. Indeed, you have a long history of posting so called 'facts' pertaining to the UK that are quickly shown to be anything but.

Just a few examples of your 'facts' pertaining to Brexit:
1. "We were also told that by 29 March this year, Britain would have 40 global trade deals lined up ready to sign as the Union Flag comes down in Brussells. To date, there are NONE."

You posted this only a day after the UK government publicly announced a new trade deal with Chile! Now I read your post and thought "I wonder if that's true". It took me a matter of seconds to discover that what you had written was not true. So either you simply stated what you did without having done any research, or you knew it was untrue but posted it anyway.

2. "Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table. Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying. It seems pretty certain that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

Again, this was posted AFTER the UK government announced a new trade deal with Chile. Now maybe you didn't realise that Chile was a South American nation. Again however, a quick bit of research before you posted (and made yourself look stupid once again) would have shown you that Chile is in South America, and that the UK had signed a trade deal with them...all without the sovereignty of the Falklands coming up.

3. "An estimated two million people marched through London"

I guess technically the above statement isnt a lie or untrue. It's simply ridiculous.

There are many other examples just on Brexit alone but I can't be bothered going over them again...

You give the impression that you get your 'facts' from remain blog sites and forums etc. Because the so called 'facts' suit your narrative you either accept them without question or you repeat them knowing they are not true.

Of course when you get called out you simply resort to attacking the person with your usual BS. For example you attack them (usually me) based on their gender, nationality etc. All very predictable and pathetic.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#19New Post! Mar 26, 2019 @ 13:45:45
@Jennifer1984 Said

you can check out the video which actually doesn't show the entire crowd. It cuts off at Hyde Park Corner at the junction with Park Lane and you don't get to see Hyde Park completely swamped with people.



I could look at the video but to what end? Unlike you I don't claim to be an expert at estimating crowd numbers. Funnily enough though Professor of Crowd Science Keith Still, among other internationally recognised experts, have viewed numerous videos (including those take by helicopter that show the entire area occupied by the crowd) and their estimates re crowd numbers are very different to your own. But what would they know eh? I mean some of the experts estimating crowd numbers don't even live in the UK!
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#20New Post! Mar 26, 2019 @ 13:52:47
By the way, using helicopter footage of the march and maps of the area, researchers at MMU have calculated that the total area of space where people were standing was around 156,250 square metres. So your contention is that 2 million people were occupying 156,250 square metres!
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#21New Post! Mar 27, 2019 @ 19:26:36
@shadowen Said

By the way, using helicopter footage of the march and maps of the area, researchers at MMU have calculated that the total area of space where people were standing was around 156,250 square metres. So your contention is that 2 million people were occupying 156,250 square metres!


That's possible. That's only around 13 people per square metre, or, 7.7cm per person. Sure, they might have had to cuff off one foot, and cut the other foot in half, and probably take off an arm, a bit of hip, a shoulder (or two for the bigger lasses) etc., but these figures are entirely believable because remain...

It will be interesting to see how the media report the numbers Tommy Robinson and the pro democracy Brexiters get. One thing we know for sure, unlike the absurd inflation of remoaner numbers, they will lie and massively understate the support for democracy, sovereignty and freedom.

Speaking of media being frauds that dupe people to act against their own interests; did you watch Tommy's "Panodrama" expose of the BBC attempt to smear and lie about him? Seeing that John Sweeney clown laughing about the Islamic genocide against Greeks was a bit of an eye opener. As was his comment that the BBC were planning on knowingly telling lies about Tommy involving sexual abuse against women around him.

I think we all know media is a propaganda machine, but seeing it exposed like that was impressive.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#22New Post! Mar 27, 2019 @ 19:37:41
Setting aside this debate over protest numbers...

So does PM May’s announcement today that she will step down once her Brexit deal passes increase the likelihood it will pass?
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#23New Post! Mar 27, 2019 @ 22:52:01
I think Lisa Simpson knows we're all on her side and she can come and vent here anytime.

Here's a toast and a prayer of sorts:

Let's all hold hands and imagine a Great Britain with lots snow cones and a fully operational Death Star. Three cheers for the land of fish and chips. May they one day discover dentists.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#24New Post! Mar 28, 2019 @ 01:57:14
@shadowen Said

2. "Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table. Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying. It seems pretty certain that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

Again, this was posted AFTER the UK government announced a new trade deal with Chile. Now maybe you didn't realise that Chile was a South American nation. Again however, a quick bit of research before you posted (and made yourself look stupid once again) would have shown you that Chile is in South America, and that the UK had signed a trade deal with them...all without the sovereignty of the Falklands coming up.


I don't have skin in this fight but I'd like to point out that just because Chile signed a trade deal that was effectively the same one as they had when the UK was part of the EU, does not prove that Jennifer was lying when she said that Argentina is heavily lobbying the other South American countries to put control of the Falklands on the trade negotiation table.

Just because it didn't work with Chile doesn't mean that Argentina is not pressuring the other countries.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#25New Post! Mar 28, 2019 @ 03:46:36
@gakINGKONG Said

I think Lisa Simpson knows we're all on her side and she can come and vent here anytime.


I'm happy for her or anyone to vent. And I have no problem with people having opinions that are different to mine. However, I am firmly on the side of freedom, democracy, sovereignty etc. England should be out, deal or not.

No one will ever convince me that just because a political class that cover the abuse of literally thousands of under age girls (look up the grooming scandals in Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Newcastle etc., for information), should get away with sabotaging democracy just because they don't like their own people.

Everyone should have a look at the way Tommy Robinson has been dealt with. It is horrendous and is what you expect to hear from Soviet Russia, not the UK.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#26New Post! Mar 28, 2019 @ 15:33:13
@nooneinparticular Said

I'd like to point out that just because Chile signed a trade deal that was effectively the same one as they had when the UK was part of the EU, does not prove that Jennifer was lying when she said that Argentina is heavily lobbying the other South American countries to put control of the Falklands on the trade negotiation table.

Just because it didn't work with Chile doesn't mean that Argentina is not pressuring the other countries.


She said:
"Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table. Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying. It seems pretty certain that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

Breaking her statement down (which is presented as fact):
"Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table."

I would love to see evidence of this lobbying. Would Argentina seriously try and lobby ALL South American nations (including countries like Venezuela with whom they currently have a very poor relationship) re linking individual trade deals with the sovereignty of the Falklands? If anyone has any evidence of this I would love to see it. Why would any South American country be prepared to jeopardise a potential trade deal with one of the world's largest economies for the sake of Argentina?

Note, there are only 4 countries in the Mercosur at present. One should also note that Macri is much more moderate than his predecessor.

"Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying."

Refer to Argentina

"It seems pretty CERTAIN that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

This is truly absurd. At the last G20 summit (2018) the UK publicly reaffirmed their position that the Falklands would remain under British rule. In recent times the U.K. Foreign Office has stated: "There is NO question of changing the status of the Falklands post Brexit. The U.K. government has been clear that our overseas territories, including the Falklands, will retain their current relationship with the U.K. after we leave the EU."

Note:
- Falkland Islanders are British citizens under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983.
- In the 2013 Falkland Islands sovereignty referendum 99.80% of Islanders voted to remain an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom.

In short there is simply nothing to suggest that the UK would "sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid". There is however plenty to very strongly suggest that, for the UK, the issue of sovereignty over the islands is not up for discussion.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#27New Post! Mar 28, 2019 @ 17:28:58
@shadowen Said

She said:
"Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table. Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying. It seems pretty certain that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

Breaking her statement down (which is presented as fact):
"Argentina is lobbying ALL the South American nations to insist that if Britain attempts to woo them with trade deals, then sovereignty of the Falkland Islands must be put on the negotiationg table."

I would love to see evidence of this lobbying. Would Argentina seriously try and lobby ALL South American nations (including countries like Venezuela with whom they currently have a very poor relationship) re linking individual trade deals with the sovereignty of the Falklands? If anyone has any evidence of this I would love to see it. Why would any South American country be prepared to jeopardise a potential trade deal with one of the world's largest economies for the sake of Argentina?


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As for the UK being one of the largest economies that countries should be tripping over themselves to deal with, I'm pretty sure South America would survive just fine if the UK turned into a crater tomorrow. Globally speaking, the UK's economy isn't all that impressive, and it certainly doesn't have the power to make demands stick. If the Falklands are non-negotiable for both sides, there is very little the UK can do to force the issue.

Quote:

Note, there are only 4 countries in the Mercosur at present. One should also note that Macri is much more moderate than his predecessor.

"Spain, which has influence in South America, is putting its weight behind this lobbying."

Refer to Argentina

"It seems pretty CERTAIN that if it meant getting trade for England and Wales, Westminster would sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid."

This is truly absurd. At the last G20 summit (2018) the UK publicly reaffirmed their position that the Falklands would remain under British rule. In recent times the U.K. Foreign Office has stated: "There is NO question of changing the status of the Falklands post Brexit. The U.K. government has been clear that our overseas territories, including the Falklands, will retain their current relationship with the U.K. after we leave the EU."

Note:
- Falkland Islanders are British citizens under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983.
- In the 2013 Falkland Islands sovereignty referendum 99.80% of Islanders voted to remain an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom.

In short there is simply nothing to suggest that the UK would "sell the Falklanders out without batting an eyelid". There is however plenty to very strongly suggest that, for the UK, the issue of sovereignty over the islands is not up for discussion.


Then the UK should be prepared to have a much harder time dealing with Venezuela, if the Falklands are non-negotiable. In the end, money talks.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#28New Post! Mar 28, 2019 @ 21:43:04
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I'm happy for her or anyone to vent. And I have no problem with people having opinions that are different to mine. However, I am firmly on the side of freedom, democracy, sovereignty etc. England should be out, deal or not.

No one will ever convince me that just because a political class that cover the abuse of literally thousands of under age girls (look up the grooming scandals in Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Newcastle etc., for information), should get away with sabotaging democracy just because they don't like their own people.

Everyone should have a look at the way Tommy Robinson has been dealt with. It is horrendous and is what you expect to hear from Soviet Russia, not the UK.



Okay. Great post.
Lots to think about and do research with this.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#29New Post! Mar 29, 2019 @ 01:42:42
@nooneinparticular Said

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


If you state something as a matter of fact and you provide no evidence to support your claim that is important. Either Argentina and Spain didnt attempt to lobby Chile (and there is no evidence that they did) re the Falklands, or their lobbying was so underwhelming that Chile didn't bring up the Falklands even in passing. Either scenario is at odds with what she claims.

@nooneinparticular Said

As for the UK being one of the largest economies that countries should be tripping over themselves to deal with, I'm pretty sure South America would survive just fine if the UK turned into a crater tomorrow.

I never said nor implied that South American countries would be tripping over themselves to trade with the UK. I simply asked why would South American countries jeopardise trade deals with the UK for the sake of Argentina.

@nooneinparticular Said
...it certainly doesn't have the power to make demands stick. If the Falklands are non-negotiable for both sides, there is very little the UK can do to force the issue.

The UK wouldn't be the ones making any demands re the Falklands. It would be the South American country/countries. The UK wouldn't need to force 'the issue'. And just as it wouldn't be the end of the world if South American countries didnt sign new trade agreements with the UK nor would it be a big deal for the UK either. But the reality is that both sides would still benefit from trade deals and there is simply nothing to suggest that these trade deals wouldn't thus be signed, and signed without the UK selling out the Falkland Islanders. Indeed Macri has already flagged closer ties with the UK even though he still publicly holds the traditional Argentine line re the Falklands.

@nooneinparticular Said

Then the UK should be prepared to have a much harder time dealing with Venezuela, if the Falklands are non-negotiable. In the end, money talks.

Argentina was a key player re Venezuela being suspended from the Mercosur so I seriously doubt they would go in to bat for them!
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#30New Post! Mar 29, 2019 @ 02:22:16
@shadowen Said

If you state something as a matter of fact and you provide no evidence to support your claim that is important. Either Argentina and Spain didnt attempt to lobby Chile (and there is no evidence that they did) re the Falklands, or their lobbying was so underwhelming that Chile didn't bring up the Falklands even in passing. Either scenario is at odds with what she claims.


An unsuccessful effort is not the same as no effort. Thus, if the lobbying was unsuccessful with Chile, in no way does that invalidate the claim that Argentina is lobbying the other South American countries over the Falklands.

Quote:

I never said nor implied that South American countries would be tripping over themselves to trade with the UK. I simply asked why would South American countries jeopardise trade deals with the UK for the sake of Argentina.


Promises, coercion, money, the list is long indeed. Sweetening the deal is kind of half the point of lobbying after all.

Quote:

The UK wouldn't be the ones making any demands re the Falklands. It would be the South American country/countries. The UK wouldn't need to force 'the issue'. And just as it wouldn't be the end of the world if South American countries didnt sign new trade agreements with the UK nor would it be a big deal for the UK either. But the reality is that both sides would still benefit from trade deals and there is simply nothing to suggest that these trade deals wouldn't thus be signed, and signed without the UK selling out the Falkland Islanders. Indeed Macri has already flagged closer ties with the UK even though he still publicly holds the traditional Argentine line re the Falklands.


In negotiations, you come to the table with a list of demands and work out what you can and cannot give up to make a deal work. If Argentina insists that the Falklands must return in order for negotiations to go forward and the UK insists that such a provision is a non-starter, then that's pretty much the end of negotiations right there. At that point, it's a matter of who blinks first.

Quote:

Argentina was a key player re Venezuela being suspended from the Mercosur so I seriously doubt they would go in to bat for them!


See my response earlier regarding lobbying. Make the deal sweeter and anythings possible.
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