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Thought for the Day 2

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Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#1New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 16:51:20
Somehow the other thread became scrambled, so I started another one.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#2New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 17:09:09
Message DT... she can fix the other thread.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#3New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 17:16:21
Ok... a thought for the day...

1. Going with he assumption that "god" created some creature(s) in "his" image: Shouldn't that creature be the most "important" on planet earth?

Example: Bees are far more important to life on earth (and human life) than humans are (given that relative to human life, humans are important for procreation).

Side note: There are something like 40,000 different bee species on planet earth, but only one human species. God clearly spent more "time" thinking about "his" creation the "bee"... of course the number of bees pales in comparison to beetles... something like 400,000 species. Seems like humans were a kind of after thought that "he" didn't spend much time thinking about... little bit of mud, a little shape molding, and that was all.
Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#4New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 17:45:54
@chaski Said

Ok... a thought for the day...

1. Going with he assumption that "god" created some creature(s) in "his" image: Shouldn't that creature be the most "important" on planet earth?

Example: Bees are far more important to life on earth (and human life) than humans are (given that relative to human life, humans are important for procreation).

Side note: There are something like 40,000 different bee species on planet earth, but only one human species. God clearly spent more "time" thinking about "his" creation the "bee"... of course the number of bees pales in comparison to beetles... something like 400,000 species. Seems like humans were a kind of after thought that "he" didn't spend much time thinking about... little bit of mud, a little shape molding, and that was all.


I saw Stephen Gould, or maybe I read it in one of his books, say that by weight bacteria are the dominate life form on Earth.

Anyway, Christianity (or at least my brand of it) deals with behavior and doing the right thing, not about the nature of the universe.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#5New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 17:49:25
@Ghyda Said

I saw Stephen Gould, or maybe I read it in one of his books, say that by weight bacteria are the dominate life form on Earth.


Yes.

@Ghyda Said


Anyway, Christianity (or at least my brand of it) deals with behavior and doing the right thing...


Doing the right thing.

Well that pretty well excludes humans from being made in "god's image".
Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#6New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 18:02:53
@chaski Said

Yes.



Doing the right thing.

Well that pretty well excludes humans from being made in "god's image".


Does any other species know the difference between right and wrong? Maybe Neanderthals?
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#7New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 18:29:23
@Ghyda Said

Does any other species know the difference between right and wrong?


1. The way animals treat each other (within species) suggests that not only do animals know right from wrong, but they actually do right over wrong most of the time.
Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#8New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 19:31:57
@chaski Said

1. The way animals treat each other (within species) suggests that not only do animals know right from wrong, but they actually do right over wrong most of the time.



It's an interesting idea, but I don't know how anyone would test it to know if it is true. Animals can't talk, so how would we know if they they act by moral code instead of instinct.

All of my biology teachers have been adamant about how animals act by instinct.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#9New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 20:02:39
@Ghyda Said

It's an interesting idea, but I don't know how anyone would test it to know if it is true. Animals can't talk, so how would we know if they they act by moral code instead of instinct.

All of my biology teachers have been adamant about how animals act by instinct.



Animals don't need to "talk", though they clearly communicate.

And, why would any animal species need a "moral code"? Do "you" need a "moral code" to figure out what is right vs what is wrong?

Yes, some of what animals do is "instinctual", as is some of what humans do. That does not mean that animals do not know was is right and what is wrong within their species specific communities.

Can you give an example of a species of animal that seems to not know what is the right or wrong thing to do in their community? (Not counting humans.)
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#10New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 20:11:55
@Ghyda Said


All of my biology teachers have been adamant about how animals act by instinct.



In what way is a dolphin or group of dolphins saving a human's life instinct?

In what way is a chimpanzee clearly grieving the loss of a child instinct?

Wolves will come together to raise their children... you would say that is instinct, but it is not instinct when humans come together to raise their children (granted typically in "primitive" groups)/

What about a dog knowing what it has done is "bad" vs a human child knowing when it has done something bad?

What about animals that share? Crows playing games? Birds singing when it is not breading season? Elephants displaying sympathy for lost ones... and displaying sadness when they come across even old bones of their dead? Whales displaying joy at being saved from a fishing net? Animal displays of affection....

And animals periodically violate the rules of their group and are expelled for it... a lioness killing a cub, a chimpanzee being expelled from its troop for murder... animals punishing their offspring for poor behavior...

This list could go on and on.... and we haven't even touched on insects...
And, yes, I have had biologist tell me that these displays by animals are either instinct or "learned behavior"... as if humans don't display either instinct or "learned behavior".

No... this pretense that only humans know what is "right" vs "wrong" and that animals only act on instinct is ignorant and arrogant.

And what is worse is that humans are the biggest violators of what is "right vs wrong".
Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#11New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 20:33:46
@chaski Said

Animals don't need to "talk", though they clearly communicate.

And, why would any animal species need a "moral code"? Do "you" need a "moral code" to figure out what is right vs what is wrong?

Yes, some of what animals do is "instinctual", as is some of what humans do. That does not mean that animals do not know was is right and what is wrong within their species specific communities.

Can you give an example of a species of animal that seems to not know what is the right or wrong thing to do in their community? (Not counting humans.)



Knowing right from wrong is a moral code. Even if animals have a list of right actions and wrong actions, we have no way to know what they consider right or wrong. Or if they act do to instinct.

When Jane Goodell observed chimpanzees, she recorded the behavior of two groups (tribes?) of chimps. One day she found all of the males in one group dead. She didn't know for sure, but she believed that the males in one group killed the males in the second group.

Did the chimps act according their view of right and wrong? Or did they act against their view of right? What is a chimps view of right and wrong.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#12New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 20:38:24
@Ghyda Said

Knowing right from wrong is a moral code.


I disagree. Feel free to defend that statement.

@Ghyda Said

Even if animals have a list of right actions and wrong actions, we have no way to know what they consider right or wrong. Or if they act do to instinct.


And you have no way of proving that they do not know what is right or wrong, EXCEPT by their behavior which demonstrates clearly that some animals absolutely know what is right... and some what is right vs what is wrong.

@Ghyda Said


When Jane Goodell observed chimpanzees, she recorded the behavior of two groups (tribes?) of chimps. One day she found all of the males in one group dead. She didn't know for sure, but she believed that the males in one group killed the males in the second group.

Did the chimps act according their view of right and wrong? Or did they act against their view of right? What is a chimps view of right and wrong.


You have here described and act of murder... mass murder... even genocide..

Are you now saying that humans who murder groups of other humans do so by instinct?
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#13New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 20:42:30
@Ghyda Said

Knowing right from wrong is a moral code. Even if animals have a list of right actions and wrong actions, we have no way to know what they consider right or wrong. Or if they act do to instinct.

When Jane Goodell observed chimpanzees, she recorded the behavior of two groups (tribes?) of chimps. One day she found all of the males in one group dead. She didn't know for sure, but she believed that the males in one group killed the males in the second group.

Did the chimps act according their view of right and wrong? Or did they act against their view of right? What is a chimps view of right and wrong.



What you seem to be saying is: Since we cannot prove that animals know what is right vs what is wrong, then we should default to the position that animals do not know what is right vs what is wrong.

Let's try that argument with your god: Since you cannot prove that your invisible god exists, we should default to the position that your god does not in fact exist.

Hmmmm.....
Ghyda On February 11, 2020




Anaheim, California
#14New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 21:02:49
@chaski Said

I disagree. Feel free to defend that statement.



And you have no way of proving that they do not know what is right or wrong, EXCEPT by their behavior which demonstrates clearly that some animals absolutely know what is right... and some what is right vs what is wrong.



You have here described and act of murder... mass murder... even genocide..

Are you now saying that humans who murder groups of other humans do so by instinct?


I'm no expert on zoology. If you can find a scientist who has studied animal knowledge of right and wrong, post it in the science section.

And God is not a scientific subject. Either you believe it or not.


@chaski Said

What you seem to be saying is: Since we cannot prove that animals know what is right vs what is wrong, then we should default to the position that animals do not know what is right vs what is wrong.

Let's try that argument with your god: Since you cannot prove that your invisible god exists, we should default to the position that your god does not in fact exist.

Hmmmm.....
chaski On about 2 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#15New Post! Jan 30, 2020 @ 21:07:13
@Ghyda Said


All of my biology teachers have been adamant about how animals act by instinct.


Just wondering...

These biology teachers of yours, do any of them also have degrees in Philosophy, Religion, Sociology, Law, Behavioral Science, Language, Communications, Education or Psychology... or any other subject matter that would deal with things like "right vs wrong" or "moral codes" of behavior?

Or are they just Biologists (either specialists or generalists)?
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