Those Calling For Impeachment...

And if Trump can not pardon himself, there is the chance the next president can pardon him. Like in Nixon's case his VP pardoned him once he resigned.

There is a fairly wide latitude of partial immunity given to a sitting president with the way the law is written. I remember a thread somewhere that I can't find anymore where we were talking about it, but basically, it's difficult to get a president indicted on crimes while he or she is actively in office.

The reasoning behind that is that the office of the presidency is protected by the constitution so that it can be executed as uninterrupted as possible...and so while technically the president can be brought to court for, say, being found in possession of a gram of marijuana, that crime in and of itself is not considered to be detrimental to the execution of the duties of the president. What would likely happen in that case is that a court would seal the record on it until the president's term expires and he or she is no longer president, so loses the protection of official immunity. At that time, the record would be unsealed and the former president would face criminal charges.

For an impeachment to take place, it has to be determined that a charge is serious enough that it necessitates the interruption of the duties of the president to see if those immunities ought to be removed and the president to face charges before the completion of his or her term of office.

As far as self-pardoning...while the language in our constitution may seem ambiguous and vague in some places...article II, Section 2 provides that the “President shall…have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States," the document as a whole precludes a president from using that power on him or herself.

Trump trying to pardon himself would not be compatible with a provision of Article II, Section 3 that “(the president) shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” and the provision of Article II, Section 1 that “executive power shall be vested in a President.”

When a president pardons someone else, he or she is executing the law even though he or she is relieving that person from the execution of the federal penal code. The law of the power of pardon is being executed. If Trump tried to pardon himself, he'd be assuming power that is incompatible with, rather than a supplement to, the application of the federal criminal law because as president, he is actually the chief law enforcement officer of the United States. He would be putting himself beyond the law by withholding consent to his own prosecution by the executive branch which he, himself controls.

But...BUT...that would mean the law, after the provision of such a pardon, could not be faithfully executed because a self pardon would be considered an act of bad faith.

Confusing enough?

The short answer is no...I do not think Trump can pardon himself.

What we know for sure is:

A sitting President can pardon anyone for past crimes, whether or not he/she has already been indicted for them.

A pardon, which is an elimination of sentence, also carries the legal admission of guilt of the crime.

A sitting President cannot pre-emptively pardon someone for future crimes.

A pardon cannot be applied to impeachment.

A sitting President cannot pardon for state crimes (that falls under the authority of the state governor).

What we don’t know for sure, since they have never been tested, and, therefore, been never been ruled on by courts (the ultimate authority on interpretation of our Constitution):

We don’t know if a sitting President can be can be indicted for federal or state crimes.

We don’t know if a President can pardon himself for federal crimes.

Things to consider, though:

Impeachment is not an indictment or sentence. An impeachment is simply a removal from office due to crimes. Congress is the sole authority on impeachment proceedings and removal. The courts are the authority when it comes to indictment and sentencing of crimes, which occurs separately from impeachment proceedings.

While the state of New York can investigate and find Trump to have committed state crimes, since the question of whether or not a sitting President can be indicted for anything hasn’t been tested, it could very well be the state may wait until he is out of office before proceeding with charges.

The President can try to pre-emptively pardon himself for all past federal crimes, but he places his presidency in jeopardy if he does so, since a pardon comes with legal admission of guilt for crimes, and may result in impeachment proceedings, something he cannot pardon himself for. So it becomes a question of how badly he wants to stay out of jail vs how badly he wants to remain President since he would not be able to have both if he were able to pardon himself and did so.

Thanks for that, Chaski and everybody else who replied.

We learn something new every day..!!

Another question arises in my mind now though.....

Leon replied: While the state of New York can investigate and find Trump to have committed state crimes, since the question of whether or not a sitting President can be indicted for anything hasn’t been tested, it could very well be the state may wait until he is out of office before proceeding with charges

Would Trump be, in effect, "Out of Office" during a re-election campaign..? If allegations were outstanding at the end of his current term, would any charges be brought before he is sworn in again for a second term.....?

I'm only guessing here, but it would seem inappropriate to allow a sitting President to re-apply for office if there were serious allegations that had not yet been tried in court..?

I think you can see what I'm getting at here. His term of office is up in four years.... I'm thinking of our system whereby Parliament is dissolved when an election is called and therefore the Prime Minister is... er.. actually NOT the Prime Minister until re-elected.

As US Presidents have to take the oath of office at the start of every term of office this would presume that between the election and his swearing in, he isn't - in effect - The President.

Am I right or wrong on this one...?

I'm fascinated now. LOL.

Election occurs while still technically in office, so, no. There is zero break period between terms.

There is also the issue of statute of limitations expiring at some point. In fact, Trump getting re-elected would help him in regards to state crimes, as he may have immunity from getting indicted for another 4 years, and by the time he got out of office, the statute of limitations would have expired.

One note (to all) about the state level crimes (and federal crimes for that matter) and the Statue of Limitations:

(Way over simplifying here... sorry).

Generally speaking felony crimes have a 5 year Statute of Limitation. There are a number of exceptions; that is crimes that have a longer Statute of Limitation (8, 10, or 20 years) or none at all.

Then there are "conspiracies" (think Trump's stupid word collusion). Conspiracy charges broaden the entire picture and (often) extend the Statute of Limitation.

(I can explain it if anyone would like, but for now will just leave it at that.)

The point being that IF Trump committed any crimes, (Bob please note that I said IF) a second term in office would not necessarily make any criminal legal charges go away... it depends on the crime and the nature of the conspiracy (if any).

(Again, I can explain it if anyone would like, but for now will just leave it at that.)

Yeah, I don’t know the length of all statute of limitations in New York. But I know some investigations are possibly going way back on his business dealings over the years, and isn’t just limited to collusion with Russia.

There isn't a single thing written anywhere that says you can't indict the president, it's just extremely unlikely that it would happen because of the weight the office carries.

That being said, the immunity enjoyed by the president is contingent on the cooperation of the judiciary. If a president is facing charges, it's the judiciary that typically would seal those charges until after the term of office and then release them.

I don't know honestly if the statute of limitation of a crime would stop "ticking" when the charges are sealed and then resume after they are unsealed though. That's an interesting question.

NY... "fraud" - 6 years. (Correction/edit...) actually it could be 15 years or more If multiple charges are combined...

If the "fraud" was done as part of a conspiracy, then the Statute of Limitation time line would start with the last overt act of the conspiracy (not necessarily the same thing as the last criminal act).

In addition, if the person in question has left the state there could be a legal argument to "toll" the Statute of Limitation pending the return of the person to the state.

Right, we don’t know if he can be indicted or not. I just raised it as a possibility, and that statute of limitations may be an issue at some point, if so, if re-elected.

just so i understand with a hypothetical: the "toll" part means his time of living in DC, doesn't count against the statute of limitations. and would start again once he leaves office? (assuming he moves back to trump tower)

Hmmm....

Indicted while in office.... part of me would like to see it played out to final resolution: is it or is it not Constitutional?

Can a president pardon him/herself... part of me would like to see that played out to final resolution: is it or is it not Constitutional?

The fact that we are having this discussion, and it might not actually be hypothetical, is a bit sad.

For me the idea that a president could essentially gets immunity for breaking the law, is a horrendously terrible idea.

Yes, the clock would start ticking once he re-entered New York.