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Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

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GreatestIam2 On September 21, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#1New Post! Dec 15, 2010 @ 21:15:16
Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine?s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

https://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html

https://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

??Reason is the Devil?s greatest whore;? M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Dec 16, 2010 @ 12:23:22
More as addtional information......

There is a really excellent introduction to thoughts on the "fall" contained at the end of the book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" by Thomas Merton. It is a dialogue between Merton, a Catholic Trappist monk, and the "zen" man D T Suzuki. I've had an extensive "google" but failed to find it online, so anyone interested would have to buy the book. I would hestitate to offer any sort of summary, suffice to say that the general idea is that "knowledge" is a necessary progression from a state of "innocence"; that a true return to innocence is not a regression (if so, it would ne a negation of life) but a passing through "knowledge" towards a state of non-distinction that actually - in a sense - incorporates knowledge/experience. (I would say that Eliots lines......

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.


......give a poetic insight into what is being hinted at)

But there is much much more in the dialogue.

(Anyway, apologies to GreatestIam, not seeking to throw this off kilter.)
BozieFozie On August 08, 2017
Life's a Beach





Paradise, Florida
#3New Post! Dec 16, 2010 @ 12:26:23
@GreatestIam2 Said

Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine?s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

https://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html

https://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

??Reason is the Devil?s greatest whore;? M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL



Is there a third choice?
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Dec 16, 2010 @ 21:50:32
I've mentioned before that on another forum a group of us are ploughing valiantly through the ancient Chinese classis the Tao Te Ching, seeking various parallels, especially Christian. Just by coincidence we have reached chapter 52, which to me speaks of the "fall", of the "knowledge of good and evil", of "original innocence" and of a few other things that perhaps others will see in their own lives....

In the beginning was the Tao.
All things issue from it;
all things return to it.

To find the origin,
trace back the manifestations.
When you recognize the children
and find the mother,
you will be free of sorrow.

If you close your mind in judgements
and traffic with desires,
your heart will be troubled.
If you keep your mind from judging
and aren't led by the senses,
your heart will find peace.

Seeing into darkness is clarity.
Knowing how to yield is strength.
Use your own light
and return to the source of light.
This is called practicing eternity.



Time for the popcorn Fozie?

GreatestIam2 On September 21, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#5New Post! Dec 17, 2010 @ 14:21:29
@tariki Said

More as addtional information......

There is a really excellent introduction to thoughts on the "fall" contained at the end of the book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" by Thomas Merton. It is a dialogue between Merton, a Catholic Trappist monk, and the "zen" man D T Suzuki. I've had an extensive "google" but failed to find it online, so anyone interested would have to buy the book. I would hestitate to offer any sort of summary, suffice to say that the general idea is that "knowledge" is a necessary progression from a state of "innocence"; that a true return to innocence is not a regression (if so, it would ne a negation of life) but a passing through "knowledge" towards a state of non-distinction that actually - in a sense - incorporates knowledge/experience. (I would say that Eliots lines......

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.


......give a poetic insight into what is being hinted at)

But there is much much more in the dialogue.

(Anyway, apologies to GreatestIam, not seeking to throw this off kilter.)


No problem.

I think that man cannot return to innocence and should not want to.
We should all mature.

Regards
DL
BozieFozie On August 08, 2017
Life's a Beach





Paradise, Florida
#6New Post! Dec 17, 2010 @ 18:01:05
@tariki Said

I've mentioned before that on another forum a group of us are ploughing valiantly through the ancient Chinese classis the Tao Te Ching, seeking various parallels, especially Christian. Just by coincidence we have reached chapter 52, which to me speaks of the "fall", of the "knowledge of good and evil", of "original innocence" and of a few other things that perhaps others will see in their own lives....

In the beginning was the Tao.
All things issue from it;
all things return to it.

To find the origin,
trace back the manifestations.
When you recognize the children
and find the mother,
you will be free of sorrow.

If you close your mind in judgements
and traffic with desires,
your heart will be troubled.
If you keep your mind from judging
and aren't led by the senses,
your heart will find peace.

Seeing into darkness is clarity.
Knowing how to yield is strength.
Use your own light
and return to the source of light.
This is called practicing eternity.



Time for the popcorn Fozie?



Oh this is SIMPLY beautiful, Tariki friend! Thank you so much, I'm going to print it and frame it! What a wonderful way to live! Oh, and I've given up popcorn for THIS!!!





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