@GreatestIam2 Said 
Theist. Who is your Lord and Monarch? Satan or Jesus?
Dogma says that God evicted Satan from heaven because he would not bow to man.
God also gave man dominion in Eden and this sovereignty was somehow given to Satan. We know this because he used it to tempt Jesus. His dominion thus had to be real or the temptation is a lie.
Dogma also says that through Jesus is now the only way for man to reach heaven. The hierarchy of powers over man seems to thus be God at the top, if allowed by Jesus. Second would be Satan as man’s rightful sovereign. Third would be Jesus who usurped the position of the Trinity as the final judge for our admittance to heaven.
The various position of the three mentioned can be argued but regardless of who is where, it still means that there are three invisible supernatural entities above man.
This is contrary to the fact that God initially wanted man to be in the third position and not the forth.
In nature, something man is a part of, all entities look to their own for guidance, laws and example to follow. Man breaks this natural pattern by placing three silent and invisible alien entities above us. A Father God who shows himself to not be a very good parent in Eden. A Satan entity who, even though is supposed to represent evil, is given sovereignty over man after God clawed back that dominion from us. And finally a Jesus entity who offers the greatest example of love, as well as the greatest example of hate as the gateway to heaven and hell.
We are learning that it is a good idea to work along with nature and not spoil it. Climate change being the teacher. We may be living souls but we must be human and natural first in order for the soul to have a home.
Why then are you, a human, going against nature by placing some other entity above you for the example, leadership and salvation that you think you need? That is counter to all of natures examples to us?
Much is said of the so called free will that God is said to have given man. Yet we all know what happened to Adam and Eve the moment they exercised their will and not the will of God. It was not pretty. God set the conditions for their death and I call that murder. We can see that God does not allow man a free will.
Why are you self deprecating yourself to a secondary position to an unknowable master? Why have you given up your free will to the will of an alien entity who basically says that if you do not do his will, you will burn for eternity? A threat from a tyrant and not free will at all.
To me, that is like a slave deciding to venerate and adore his owner.
Why are you not choosing your natural position of leadership or following human leadership? Why are you choosing a position that is basically of a slave?
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
John 8 44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If Satan is our earthly King and father as scripture says, are you to serve Satan with deep respect and fear, or Jesus, who has no authority or dominion on earth?
Regards
DL
@MadCornishBiker Said
Where do you get your weird ideas about what the bible says? God didn't evict Satan from heaven at all, nor was Satan evicted from there until it was time for Jesus to take up his throne there. That is very clearly stated in scripture.
You are right hover about the bible saying that Satan is the ruler of this world, even the god of it.
What does that mean for us? Well if Satan rules the world then governments must be in his power, so if you get involved in any form of politics you are involved in Satan's ruling system.
If we fight in a war for a government we are fighting for one part of Satan's system against another.
That is why Jesus told his followers to be no part of this world.
Actually I have never mentioned this aspect before, but another proof that the mainstream churches are part of Satan's system, not God's is the fact that they are so deeply involved in politics. After all, in the UK, how many bishops are in the house of Lords, when if they claim to be Christian they have no right to be there.
As Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters, you either accept Jesus as your reigning king, or you accept human governments which means accepting Satan as your ruler. That is why no faithful JW will vote, salute the flag, swear allegiance to any government, join the armed forces, or in anyway support the Governments. True they pay their taxes in return for the services the governments supply, and obey any law which does not go against God's laws and rules, they "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". Nothing more, and hopefully nothing less.
@GreatestIam2 Said
So all religions and governments are corrupt. As well as all scripture yet you quote from them.
Yours is the only true faith. How nice for you.
Regards
DL
@MadCornishBiker Said
No, not all religions, any who stick to what the bible teaches are certainly not corrupt. As far as I can find there is only one though
You really can't resist twisting what I say can you? Or is it your mind that is twisted? I am seriously beginning to suspect the latter.
@Reviso Said
Greatest... I found you. But you didn't answer the question; 'where do you get your ideas?' I thought you got them from school.
But the indignant rhetory is what I think you are looking for. Why don't you answer? ... happy St. Andrews. Oh yeah, you don't believe in saints.
@aquine Said
No it doesn't.
Man gave Satan dominion by obeying him and thereby disobeying God Almighty. Please see Genesis 3.
You may enjoy 'Burnt beyond recognition' by Henry Rollins.
Your understanding of Scripture could only come from a mind in such a state.
I have taken more time than I usually do in replying to your twisted theological rants.
@bob_the_fisherman Said
There is only one true church? Let me guess, you are referring here to the one true church of consistent and repeated false prophecy, deception and lies - the JWs. You know, in fairness to this church, literally no-one who sought truth would ever be a part of it, even if it had been guilty of just one false prophecy. But, the JW church has been guilty of literally dozens of false prophecies - indeed, it has been 100% successful at failing to correctly prophesy, so far as I know - perhaps this is the reason they say that prophecy no longer happens... it certainly doesn't happen for them
I know that you think God
wanted the JWs to lie, and indeed, you say, God lied to the JWs by giving them false prophecy - but that would make God a deceiver, yet, we
know who the Deceiver is (and no prophet of God ever got prophecy, or its explanation, wrong, indeed, getting things right was a key test of prophet-hood, and failure meant death).
Sadly, gl2 has a real axe to grind with God. He spends so much time hating someone he does not believe in... doesn't make sense to me
@MadCornishBiker Said
It doesn't happen to anyone.
They have not actually made one prophecy, though it is true they have got quite a few wrong interpretation of existing prophecy, or more often their significance, in the past, but again they admit that and move on when they have worked it out. They are not prophets and don't claim to be, they are interpreters and human and sometimes over-enthusiastic ones at that. I can understand why they thought what they did at the time, but they forgot one simple factor, God has a totally different idea of timescales to us humans. "Quickly" to humans means hours or at the worst weeks, to God it can mane decades, centuries, or even millennia, which is why unless we take note of the clues in the bible it can be so easy to "run ahead" of God, though if you knew the names of many of those who did, and their histories you would also find that they simply ceased to be JWs because they simply didn't like being wrong and held their error against God, instead of admitting their own mistakes.
For instance there was the misunderstanding that 1914 would bring Armageddon swiftly in its wake. I can understand why they thought that, but it was wrong. They forgot, in their enthusiasm, to allow for all the other things that had to happen between Christ's taking up Kingdom power, which he did in 1914, and Armageddon. It wasn't in fat until 1922 they realised that the preaching work was needed to bring in the last of the anointed ones, and not until 1935 that they also realised that it was time to start gathering in the "other sheep" as well (not "instead" as some critics choose interpret it).
That is one error of judgement, not prophecy since 1914 is prophesied in scripture, they just misunderstood the significance of it and the timescale which it heralded in.
Yes very much so, and he is not alone. There are many out there who blame God for something which was not in fact His doing, and teachings such as the ones you support make that easier for them to do. Just imagine how bitter telling someone that God took their young daughter could make them when God takes no-one at all in fact. That is simply down to a combination of Adamic sin which brings in sickness and death with it, with "time and unforeseen circumstances".
@woodss Said
Thats easy, one Jesus of course.
I have been to a lot of prophecy seminars myself and I simply conclusion with this all, is to live a content and confident life and simply place your life in God's hands, thats all I believe we dont really have to become obbsesed with this prophecy stuff.
You have to be rational about it, if you go to a church that doesnt think that way, its a awful doomsday clut.
I dont think Jesus wants us to bicker about it, and it simply wants me to switch off with it and simply focus on work.
Take it from a Seventh-day Adventist, one of the main churches that does seminars, I have been around the christian church to beleive that you have to be ready, but not overrly obsessed with it.
I know members of the Adventist church that are obsessed with it and it consumption to other aspects of their lives, this is wrong.
If you go to a church where other parts of your life is has consumption over obsessed doomsday views then its not that good for your career to go too because it destroys it.
Then Jesus himself will say to them why were you obsessed?
@MadCornishBiker Said
Why not "the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 15:6)? after all that is who Jesus taught us to worship.
@woodss Said
Of course sorry
Jesus himself does not want us obsessed with doomsday, after all we dont really have to be he took our place, and leave all that stuff to God's department.
Thats what I do, and I live a happy and content life with God as a guide.
@bob_the_fisherman Said
Does this include Russell, the progenitor of this cult? He significantly erred. See, the problem I have with your belief, is the JWs have made tools of themselves in multiple ways, multiple times, through falsely claiming they know the truth. When their error was so astoundingly obvious that it couldn't be denied, they did the only thing they could do, and admitted they were wrong. There is no kudos earned through this. When one lacks a choice, and one does what one must do, this is not laudable. It is purely pragmatic.
True, they were so wrong, in so many ways, and so clearly misunderstood precisely what the bible says, that it necessarily calls into question their entire belief system. And, when one factors in their repeated deceptive, fraudulent misquoting of biblical scholars to support their view that those same scholars repudiate in the quoted works, their credibility is totally shot.
According to whom is 1914 prophesied in the bible?
And, for the record, it is not *one* error that the J-dubs have made - I have a list of over 20, and am aware of the fact that they made 44 prophetic errors between 1940 and 1943 alone. That is a pretty consistent level of abject failure.
Wow, there's some interesting logic for you. Because the JWs have been proven wrong every time they say something that is susceptible to proof, they are right in all other things. How does that work, precisely?
Fair enough, I have looked at what the JWs say, and found that when they consistently misquoted biblical scholars to support their doctrine, a doctrine that those same scholars reject outright as self evident falsehood, the JWs are wrong. This is pure logic.
What teaching is that? What have I said that gives people reason to hate God?
And here, we find a point of agreement. Telling people that God killed someone is a rather sick thing to say, in my opinion. It is not a thing I endorse.
@MadCornishBiker Said
And yet the church you support is wrong on so many things but they haven't the courage to admit it, and neither have you, no matter how often it is proved wrong. You do what they all do and deny the literal translations from the Greek and Hebrew that prove you wrong and claim that the later, altered versions are the right one.
Yes it includes Russell himself. They got the date right but simply expected things to happen a lot quicker than they actually did, because, as I have explained before, they were too eager. The very fact that the bible says that the "path of the righteous one is in ever increasing light" shows that they wouldn't get it right straight away but their knowledge would improve.
Looking back with hindsight it is obvious they were wrong, but they weren't and still aren't on the major points, just the hoped for timescales. However most of the churches have even failed to admit their error on the major issues let alone the relatively less important ones. By that I mean the doctrinal errors that are so easy to disprove by going back to literal translations of the original languages. The JWs have made no errors in those areas.
I do not believe that the bible scholars were misquoted, I think your interpretation of that is as much in error as your interpretation of what the JW's do and teach so far has proved to be.
I have to admit here that I am not entirely sure who, altogether discovered 1914, though I do know it is the basis of faiths such as the 7th Day Adventists.
I can tell you how the date was worked out, according to bible principle and prophecy. The best way is to copy and that from the JW's own material.
When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “Let Your Kingdom Come,” pages 186-189.)
How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.
CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14.
They have not been wrong in "everything that is susceptible to proof" IN fact it is in things susceptible proof they have been shown to be right, it is the speculative side of this, the interpretations that they have been proven wrong in at times, such, for instance as the "Generation" idea above.
That cannot be said of the churches you follow which have frequently been proven to be doctrinally wrong on such things as the trinity, Hellfire and others. Yet they have never had the courage to admit it, and neither do you.
It would be if they had been proven wrong, but the literal translations prove them right and their critics wrong.
The polytheistic teaching of the trinity for one. That fact that your churches teach that God is in control of this system of things and yet does nothing about the cruelty and suffering for another without giving them any expectation of it and telling them that it is "God's will" which it never has been.
You support the teachings of those churches and by doing so are endorsing those teachings.
So you are even apostate to your own churches then? Interesting. You either support those churches in whole or not at all. If you think any of their their teachings are "sick" then you should do what the bible says and "get out from amongst them, do not touch the unclean thing". True In only support some of the JWs teachings until we know better, because if they don't know it yet then it isn't God's time for them to do so, and I have no intention of "running ahead" of God. What I support in fact is the knowledge that they are without doubt God's people, and God is behind them.
@bob_the_fisherman Said
Just remind me, what church do I support?
And, the way you define proof is a thing I believe we need to investigate. I cannot help but feel that you use the term proof much like this:
JWs: "we are right, and person "A" - a scholar of biblical Greek - agrees with us, as this quote shows.... We are not scholars, but he is, and because he agrees with us, we are right."
Biblical scholar "A" responds: "you misquote me either through malice and deliberate fraudulence, or, mental incompetence, but, either way, stop misrepresenting me and publicly apologise, or, I shall vigorously defend myself in court."
You: "scholars agree with the JWs, therefore, the JWs are right. "
There may be much in the above that convinces you of the JWs integrity and honestly, it certainly convinces me.
Does this include your own translations that say God called himself "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14, and Jesus called Himself "ego eimi" in John 8:58?
Even though knowledge has been done away with? So, according to JW doctrine, knowledge has been done away with, and is increasing at the same time? How does that work?
In other words, they were wrong on all points susceptible to proof, but are right on all others. Why would anyone believe that? Indeed, how
could anyone believe that?
According to biblical scholars they have systemically committed errors in their interpretation.
And the letter sent by Mantey to the JWs pointing out their deceptive misquoting of him? How does that fit into your schema?
This is probably not helpful to your case.
Well, we should start this list by laying the groundwork, regarding how JWs biblical interpretations are brought into being. We know that their translation of the bible was 'inspired' by "angels of various ranks who control [Jehovah's Witnesses]" [A quote from Vice-President, F.W.Franz, in the September 1, 1932 edition of Watchtower].
The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, states:
"...Jehova's Witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support (Revelation 14:6, 7; Matthew 25:31, 32). And since no word or work of Jehova can fail for He is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven ." (Emphasis added).
Also, from the Watchtower, Dec 1, 1933: "
No man is given credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watch Tower publications" (p.263, emphasis added).
I have more quotes along this line that I can use, if required. But these clearly set the unmistakable premise that the JWs 'revelations' are not their own, but rather, are inspired. Now, their own testimony says that God does not make errors. Therefore, if the JWs are found to be in error, then, it follows that it is not God who gives them the guidance they believe comes from God. This is an important point, and needs to be emphasised. If anyone claims divine guidance, they are saying that they are guided by God. One would assume that if the JWs are the holders of truth, they would know when God is speaking to them. If they believe God is talking to them, yet, the evidence categorically shows that this is false (because their revelations are wrong), we would need to ask where this guidance came from. There are only 2 options.
1. It is entirely from their own heads, and they cannot tell God's inspiration from their own thoughts, or,
2. They are being deceived by, well, the deceiver. This means that they cannot differentiate God from his enemy. [And, if the angels that told the JWs how to interpret the bible, are the same ones that told the JWs how to
translate the bible - which is a reasonable hypothesis - further doubt is cast on the JWs rendering of the bible...]
Having laid the groundwork, as presented by the JWs themselves, we now move on to test them according to their own principles and premises.
Russell himself erred in 1874 (although for the moment I cannot find my reference - I will though. Nonetheless, we will start with his 1877 error, in which he decried, the end is nigh, in
Three Worlds and the Harvest of this World.
He was also wrong in 1889 when he said that "the battle of the day of God Almighty," was rapidly approaching, and, he said, in 1914, we will see the overthrow of this world's current system of government, (in,
The Time Is at Hand, 1889, p.101).
In
Thy Kingdom Come, (1891), Russell again reaffirmed that 1914 was the end (p.126).
In "Times of the Gentiles", 1904, this date was reaffirmed.
May 1, 1914, this date was again reaffirmed in the Watchtower.
Now, before we move on, we really need to consider what I have presented above. For a full
37 years the JWs laboured under a delusion they believed was from God, that was regularly reaffirmed. This alone, casts their credibility so far outside the realm of the acceptable, that people should immediately leave. Whatever it was through which a legion of witnesses gained 'guidance' and 'inspiration' in that time - the "angels of various ranks" that Franz spoke of - none of them were from God. We know this, because their words were wrong. So, if the angels the JWs listen to are not God's angels, whose are they, precisely?
In 1907, Russell spoke at length of how, if the 1914 prophecy failed, it would be a great blow, and would "work irreparable wreck," to the JWs understanding of all things biblical (which is odd considering how many times they said that their words were from God, not their own understanding...)
When 1914 gave way to 1915, the JWs preceded to change the dates for Armageddon. And, their specific prophecies gave way to slightly more fluid ones. Their next prediction for Armageddon was something like: "it will be a... 1918 to 1925ish kind of thing..." which is unprecedented in Biblical 'revelation'.
Armageddon was supposed to begin in 1918 (from Russell's posthumous "
Studies in Scriptures, p.62).
However, the JW cannot escape scrutiny by attesting that it was not the JWs, but rather, their founder Mr. Russell, who made these errors. His immediate successor, Joseph Rutherford, re-articulated this same falsehood, stating that 1925 was the latest possible year for the end (Watchtower, April 1, 1923, p.106).
I have more, if you like. I can go on to point out how, with the embarrassment of a second dismal failure looming large, where 1925 was rapidly ending and the world was not, the JWs began denying having made the claim in the first place (as, for example, in the Watchtower, September 1925, p.262), where they said
"It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated the thought that 1925 should see [the end]."
Now, here we find a point of agreement. Satan *did* try to deceive the elect into believing that 1925 was the end - and the JWs were his vehicle. Luckily for the elect, they are not aligned to the JWs, and so, no harm was done.
Also, the JWs were acting with considerable dishonesty in trying to claim they had never said when this world would end - they had given a date many times, as I have shown. Rather than fess up, they began trying to cover up.
Do I need to continue?
The problem though, is that *they* claimed divine guidance for their prophetic utterances (and, for the record, saying that inspired interpretation of prophetic biblical statements pertaining to the future is not prophecy, is somewhat unusual I would have thought).
That's the polite interpretation. A more honest one says, they are continually shown to be wrong...
Why admit to being wrong on something that has not been shown to be wrong? It might be wrong, but the proof presented by JWs, namely, false and misleading quotes from biblical scholars, and, bibles that attest to the very things the JWs deny (ie., God and Jesus calling themselves
ego eimi), is hardly convincing.
I am not entirely sure what you mean here, to be honest.
Well, I know that the Catholics tend to say things like, if a catastrophe happens, or some such, that God made it happen. I am not Catholic. There are other churches that say similar things - however, I am not aligned with them either.
I just want to highlight what appears to be an inconsistency in your last two paragraphs. Read the bits I highlight - is there inconsistency there, or is it just me?
Nov 04, 2011 @ 18:10:10
