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The sovereignty of nations

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buffalobill90 On July 12, 2013
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Viaticum, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 22:27:34
Sovereignty is roughly defined as independence and autonomy on a national scale. A nation or state is sovereign insofar as it rules itself and isn't controlled by an external, higher authority.

Throughout history, or at least throughout the history of the last 1000 years or so, a general trend is apparent: communities, societies and nations have become less and less independent, less in control of their own governance, and larger and larger sovereign complexes have emerged. Until relatively recently, 'countries' were the largest independent systems and governed themselves. Now even countries are constituent parts of multi-national institutions with enforcable laws which overrule the laws of individual states, for example European trade laws or the Universal Bill of Human Rights.

Is this trend a bad thing? Is it tragic for nations to lose their independence and revoke their sovereignty to huge international bodies like the UN or EU? Or is it a positive trend? Do the benefits of international concert and cooperation outweigh the need for freedom on a national scale?

Discuss.
Sweet_Merry On October 01, 2023
One day. . . I will





Building my Castles in the Sky
#2New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 22:49:44
Wow, what a topic.
I have never thought on this. But ideally it would seem to be a great thing with the dispersion of wealth and resources. Yet rarely in life is anything which was made to be good and help all ever really benefited anyone but those in power.

I don't really know a lot of history, I do know that the bigger a Power becomes the less likely it will be to give up it's power without a huge fight. And the more corrupt it will become.

My opinion only.

vicki On May 28, 2010

Deleted



manhattan,
#3New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 22:59:50
It's only a bad thing when you don't benefit from it and your life becomes worse.
buffalobill90 On July 12, 2013
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Viaticum, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 23:00:21
@Sweet_Merry Said

Wow, what a topic.
I have never thought on this. But ideally it would seem to be a great thing with the dispersion of wealth and resources. Yet rarely in life is anything which was made to be good and help all ever really benefited anyone but those in power.

I don't really know a lot of history, I do know that the bigger a Power becomes the less likely it will be to give up it's power without a huge fight. And the more corrupt it will become.

My opinion only.




I see. In my opinion, an independent nation, with the final decision on its own laws, is more likely to become corrupt and immoral than a union of states with agreed laws. But you are right in a sense; any international government would need to be democratic and accountable to prevent it from being corrupt. Of course, since different countries have such different cultures and varying populations, would it be fair to make such an institution democratic, since the most popular culture is not necessarily the best one to be represented by the government in all nations?

Clearly there must be some agreement on common laws which are held to be right by all cultures; perhaps the Bill of Human Rights is an attempt at this. But how does one decide what is the best kind of law? What is the 'true' morality? Should local customs be respected even if they don't conform to this?

A benevolent dictatorship, with unrestricted power to enforce 'true' morality in all countries would be the best system, but the trouble would be with working out what true morality is in the first place (if it exists) and then instating a trustworthy agent or group to administer it.
Sweet_Merry On October 01, 2023
One day. . . I will





Building my Castles in the Sky
#5New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 23:12:00
@buffalobill90 Said

I see. In my opinion, an (1)independent nation, with the final decision on its own laws, is more likely to become corrupt and immoral than a union of states with agreed laws. But you are right in a sense; any international government would need to be democratic and accountable to prevent it from being corrupt. Of course, since different countries have such different cultures and varying populations, would it be fair to make such an institution democratic, since the most popular culture is not necessarily the best one to be represented by the government in all nations?

Clearly there must be some agreement on common laws which are held to be right by all cultures; perhaps the Bill of Human Rights is an attempt at this. But how does one decide what is the best kind of law? What is the 'true' morality? Should local customs be respected even if they don't conform to this?

(2)A benevolent dictatorship, with unrestricted power to enforce 'true' morality in all countries would be the best system, but the trouble would be with working out what true morality is in the first place (if it exists) and then instating a trustworthy agent or group to administer it.


(1)0kay. But that's just scale- The independent Nation is small while the International would be so huge.

Each, going up in power, would seem to have an easier time going corrupt since there are more areas to blame. Easier to confuse the rest of the departments until it's too late.

(2)Seems hard to except. What Government is really there for the people? It's there to protect itself; The Nation. The people are only a resource to use and care.
Yes, it benefits the government to maintain happy and productive citizens but it will always take care of the over all power it has to the detriment of the citizens.

Cultural laws? No idea how that would be handled.

Wow, Ididn't know I was so cynical.[/]

In my opinion.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#6New Post! Nov 11, 2009 @ 23:18:07
@buffalobill90 Said

Sovereignty is roughly defined as independence and autonomy on a national scale. A nation or state is sovereign insofar as it rules itself and isn't controlled by an external, higher authority.

Throughout history, or at least throughout the history of the last 1000 years or so, a general trend is apparent: communities, societies and nations have become less and less independent, less in control of their own governance, and larger and larger sovereign complexes have emerged. Until relatively recently, 'countries' were the largest independent systems and governed themselves. Now even countries are constituent parts of multi-national institutions with enforcable laws which overrule the laws of individual states, for example European trade laws or the Universal Bill of Human Rights.

Is this trend a bad thing? Is it tragic for nations to lose their independence and revoke their sovereignty to huge international bodies like the UN or EU? Or is it a positive trend? Do the benefits of international concert and cooperation outweigh the need for freedom on a national scale?

Discuss.


Very bad thing.
We the CEO's, in order to form a more perfect cash cow!
buffalobill90 On July 12, 2013
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Viaticum, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Nov 12, 2009 @ 10:46:51
@Sweet_Merry Said
(2)Seems hard to except. What Government is really there for the people? It's there to protect itself; The Nation. The people are only a resource to use and care.
Yes, it benefits the government to maintain happy and productive citizens but it will always take care of the over all power it has to the detriment of the citizens.



What if the dictator was totally selfless with no personal ambition or concerns for anything but the welfare of citizens? Like Plato's philosopher-king.
buffalobill90 On July 12, 2013
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Viaticum, United Kingdom
#8New Post! Nov 12, 2009 @ 10:47:18
@shinobinoz Said

Very bad thing.
We the CEO's, in order to form a more perfect cash cow!



Why's it a very bad thing?
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#9New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 04:16:36
@buffalobill90 Said

Why's it a very bad thing?

It places business and their CEO's in control of governments and the individual has no real power.
crazylikeafox On June 02, 2017




McKinney, Texas
#10New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 06:37:17
@buffalobill90 Said

What if the dictator was totally selfless with no personal ambition or concerns for anything but the welfare of citizens? Like Plato's philosopher-king.


Well aside from that whole "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing, what happens when the benevolent dictator dies? Somewhere along the line a not-so-benevolent dictator would be ruler. What then?
arcades On August 08, 2013




Northbay, Canada
#11New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 06:42:42
@buffalobill90 Said

I see. In my opinion, an independent nation, with the final decision on its own laws, is more likely to become corrupt and immoral than a union of states with agreed laws. But you are right in a sense; any international government would need to be democratic and accountable to prevent it from being corrupt. Of course, since different countries have such different cultures and varying populations, would it be fair to make such an institution democratic, since the most popular culture is not necessarily the best one to be represented by the government in all nations?

Clearly there must be some agreement on common laws which are held to be right by all cultures; perhaps the Bill of Human Rights is an attempt at this. But how does one decide what is the best kind of law? What is the 'true' morality? Should local customs be respected even if they don't conform to this?

A benevolent dictatorship, with unrestricted power to enforce 'true' morality in all countries would be the best system, but the trouble would be with working out what true morality is in the first place (if it exists) and then instating a trustworthy agent or group to administer it.



True morality is simple.

Don't invade the personal human rights of others.

Treat others as you want to be treated.

Combining these 2 things makes for good morality.

Any cultural differences that invade the human rights of others(like the way some women are treated in other countries) should be abolished.
Ellen On November 13, 2009

Banned



,
#12New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 06:56:04
@Sweet_Merry Said

dispersion of wealth and resources.

Are you a communist or something?
arcades On August 08, 2013




Northbay, Canada
#13New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 06:59:32
@crazylikeafox Said

Well aside from that whole "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing, what happens when the benevolent dictator dies? Somewhere along the line a not-so-benevolent dictator would be ruler. What then?



Power doesn't always corrupt and it certainly doesn't have to.

Only weak minded people get corrupted by power.
Ellen On November 13, 2009

Banned



,
#14New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 07:09:20
@arcades Said

Power doesn't always corrupt and it certainly doesn't have to.

Only weak minded people get corrupted by power.

Since when doesn't power corrupt?
arcades On August 08, 2013




Northbay, Canada
#15New Post! Nov 13, 2009 @ 07:15:25
@Ellen Said

Since when doesn't power corrupt?



It often does but like I said only weak minded people get corrupted by power.

I mean come on it's not like there is some magical property in power that no one is immune to.
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