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The limits of "willing"

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dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Aug 27, 2020 @ 10:11:06
We can will knowledge but not wisdom. Pleasure but not happiness. Congratulations but not admiration. Meekness but not humility. Reading but not understanding.

Thoughts? If any.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#2New Post! Aug 27, 2020 @ 14:43:16
DIKW
Data -> Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom

Money can't buy me love
Then you love a little wild one, and she brings you only sorrow
All the time you know she's smilin'; you'll be on your knees tomorrow



.. I'll have to think about the next two

That's probably why I'm a slow reader - and prefer reading over videos, because I want to Understand what is trying to be communicated.
Too often in speech (and some take it to the written word as well) flashy words are thrown around to try to make something sound impressive or important, but when you dig down to the core information, often times it is just circular psychobabble.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Aug 27, 2020 @ 16:00:57
@mrmhead Said

DIKW
Data -> Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom

Money can't buy me love
Then you love a little wild one, and she brings you only sorrow
All the time you know she's smilin'; you'll be on your knees tomorrow



.. I'll have to think about the next two

That's probably why I'm a slow reader - and prefer reading over videos, because I want to Understand what is trying to be communicated.
Too often in speech (and some take it to the written word as well) flashy words are thrown around to try to make something sound impressive or important, but when you dig down to the core information, often times it is just circular psychobabble.


In the Pure Land tradition its called the way of no calculation. Just read, absorb, neither accept not reject, or come to conclusions. And rest/trust in Reality-as-is, AKA Amida.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 07:45:14
@mrmhead Said

DIKW
Data -> Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom




I don't think that there is any necessary progression.

What do others think?
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 14:34:31
@dookie Said

I don't think that there is any necessary progression.

What do others think?



Of course there is a progression:

Review > Re-evaluate > Revise > Advance


Learning never ceases. Knowledge becomes obsolete on the day that we think we know everything.




@mrmhead Said



Money can't buy me love
Then you love a little wild one, and she brings you only sorrow
All the time you know she's smilin'; you'll be on your knees tomorrow





You've provided a song title by The Beatles and a lyric by Steely Dan.

I'm not following that line of thought.

Signed
Confused of Penzance.



**** edited to add quote tag. - tiger
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#6New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 15:16:27
@Jennifer1984 Said

Of course there is a progression:

Review > Re-evaluate > Revise > Advance


Learning never ceases. Knowledge becomes obsolete on the day that we think we know everything.





The thread concerns that which can be willed and that which cannot. The progression I was asking about is between the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom

I do not think that there is any necessary progression between the two.

Of course, the question arises as to what exactly is "wisdom".

One attempt:- "Wisdom isn’t simply intelligence or knowledge or even understanding. It is the ability to use these to think and act in such a way that common sense prevails and choices are beneficial and productive."

Another:- "wisdom is the mind/heart thirsting for emancipation seeing directly into the heart of reality."

I would suggest it is to respond to each unfolding moment in the manner appropriate. Which to my mind links the previous two definitions.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#7New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 16:27:33
@Jennifer1984 Said

Money can't buy me love
Then you love a little wild one, and she brings you only sorrow
All the time you know she's smilin'; you'll be on your knees tomorrow



You've provided a song title by The Beatles and a lyric by Steely Dan.

I'm not following that line of thought.

Signed
Confused of Penzance.


It is two separate examples of Pleasure but not Happiness
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#8New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 16:40:49
@dookie Said

The thread concerns that which can be willed and that which cannot. The progression I was asking about is between the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom

I do not think that there is any necessary progression between the two.

Of course, the question arises as to what exactly is "wisdom".

One attempt:- "Wisdom isn’t simply intelligence or knowledge or even understanding. It is the ability to use these to think and act in such a way that common sense prevails and choices are beneficial and productive."

Another:- "wisdom is the mind/heart thirsting for emancipation seeing directly into the heart of reality."

I would suggest it is to respond to each unfolding moment in the manner appropriate. Which to my mind links the previous two definitions.


The context in which I learned DIKW was Six Sigma process improvement.

1
You collect a lot of data (a bunch of numbers and results)
2
Organize it into Information (this number gives you that result)
3
That information may give you Knowledge (the number-result is consistent and reliable)(if the p is low, the null must go ... the null is dull)
4
With that knowledge you can gain wisdom (if I set the number "here", I will get "that" result)


If the "knowledge" doesn't make sense (if there is no consistency), there is no wisdom to be gained.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#9New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 19:17:48
@mrmhead Said

The context in which I learned DIKW was Six Sigma process improvement.

1
You collect a lot of data (a bunch of numbers and results)
2
Organize it into Information (this number gives you that result)
3
That information may give you Knowledge (the number-result is consistent and reliable)(if the p is low, the null must go ... the null is dull)
4
With that knowledge you can gain wisdom (if I set the number "here", I will get "that" result)


If the "knowledge" doesn't make sense (if there is no consistency), there is no wisdom to be gained.



I'm not familiar with all that. It appears to me as an academic theory unrelated to real life, reality.

I observe a world where more often than not the accumulation of knowledge does not in fact lead to wisdom - at least as I sought to define it.

It seems that in such a system no "willing" is required.

And wisdom might perhaps be needed in the first place to decide exactly what "data", "information" and "knowledge" to pursue!
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#10New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 20:20:47
Are others concerned about asking themselves if they actually have "wisdom"? Do you want it? Is that just an academic question? Are you satisfied with pursuing "data" or whatever, looking forward to the day when "wisdom" unfolds as a consequence of such accumulated data? Wandering in a world of definitions and theories.

I can't relate to that. I can relate to Thomas Merton's words, that our real journey in life is interior, "it is a matter of growth, deepening, and of an ever greater surrender to the creative action of love and grace in our hearts."


Whatever comes will be. Wisdom? Call it what you like.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#11New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 20:29:49
@mrmhead Said




If the "knowledge" doesn't make sense (if there is no consistency), there is no wisdom to be gained.



By the way, I don't really go for "consistency". In the Pure Land, "consistency" reeks of self power.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#12New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 21:28:47
@dookie Said

We can will knowledge but not wisdom. Pleasure but not happiness. Congratulations but not admiration. Meekness but not humility. Reading but not understanding.

Thoughts? If any.


Knowledge can have little to do with wisdom, although it can help if used for such. But one must also have the wisdom to accept wisdom. So I think wisdom can be willed to an extent.

Pleasure is often used as a substitute for the lack of happiness, but it is hard to achieve happiness from it in those situations. Usually long terms solutions to our situations or even deeper therapeutic causes are what is needed if it is missing. So, yes, happiness can be willed, but it takes a lot of hard work. Pleasure is easier to come by.

Congratulations can be an outward manifestation of admiration or be apart from it. But I do think both can be willed. Even if undeserved.

I see meekness as an outwards manifestation of inner humility. Or it could be wholly an act. So, while meekness can be willed, I think it may be harder to be truly humble, maybe impossible if you don’t have the genes or conditioning (think narcissism). This might be the closest to being correct in your statements above.

Reading and understanding both require education. Some might catch on faster than others. But there can be traits that serve as hinderances to either, more so with the understanding.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#13New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 22:10:39
@dookie Said

I'm not familiar with all that. It appears to me as an academic theory unrelated to real life, reality.

I observe a world where more often than not the accumulation of knowledge does not in fact lead to wisdom - at least as I sought to define it.

It seems that in such a system no "willing" is required.

And wisdom might perhaps be needed in the first place to decide exactly what "data", "information" and "knowledge" to pursue!


It's an abstract of what "we" intend to put into practice. The methodology was developed (or popularized?) for manufacturing in Japan (Toyota) to reduce defects.

But at it's most basic is the "natural" bell curve.
Add a boat-load of math and statistics, and you get Six Sigma!

And yes, a big emphasis is on WHAT data you are collecting. Experiments can be expensive, so you better get it right the first time.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#14New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 22:14:44
@dookie Said

By the way, I don't really go for "consistency". In the Pure Land, "consistency" reeks of self power.



But what of the natural constants that exist?
Is that not consistency?
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#15New Post! Aug 28, 2020 @ 22:18:19
@dookie Said

Are others concerned about asking themselves if they actually have "wisdom"? Do you want it? Is that just an academic question? Are you satisfied with pursuing "data" or whatever, looking forward to the day when "wisdom" unfolds as a consequence of such accumulated data? Wandering in a world of definitions and theories.

I can't relate to that. I can relate to Thomas Merton's words, that our real journey in life is interior, "it is a matter of growth, deepening, and of an ever greater surrender to the creative action of love and grace in our hearts."


Whatever comes will be. Wisdom? Call it what you like.


It's a double edged sword.

With enough accumulated data, you may see patterns, and appreciate what comes from them.
But then with enough accumulated data, you may see patterns and despise the lack of originality.
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