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The Chosen Ones

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tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 10:07:16
On another thread I spoke of the genesis of a particular religion, and suggested that how each began does not necessarily determine how it will end.

Having said that, for me, as far as the Abrahamic Faiths are concerned, at the start, in one form or another, we have the idea of the Chosen Ones.

Over time, many have sought to salvage something from the wreckage of such a claim. Perhaps the best attempt is by those who say something along the lines of "Oh yes, we are chosen to be the servants of all others." Good try, I must admit.

Yet it does seem to me that either the heart of reality, the divine, God, whatever...........chooses ALL. Or, if there is ultimately no meaning to existence, and we live in an absurd universe, no one has been chosen.

Once we align ourselves in any way with the idea that some are chosen and not others, the seed of misery is planted, and the seed will sprout. As it has done throughout history. The lost and the saved, the wheat and the chaff, us and them. Often justified by deep and even quite moral thought, yet having within it the seed of discord.

So what about it?

Who is YOUR "us", and who is YOUR "them". Who is "chosen" and who is not. And what are the benefits of thinking thus, rather than beginning from the ground of a fundamental "us" that is unbreakable in spite of all our differences.
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 11:17:08
According to the "book" - take your pick which one - it is "god" who is depicted as doing the choosing. And the faithful appear to have various means of relating such "choice" with other words such as "God wills that all be saved." Other texts tell us "many are called but few are chosen", and others that "we were chosen before the foundation the world".

Which all creates the "mystery". If it is a matter of being chosen why doe snot a God of love choose all.

The Calvinists - if I understand them correctly - claim that their is no mystery. We are chosen and some are damned. Therefore God did not choose all. The saved witness eternally to God's mercy, the damned to His justice. A wonderful picture of eternity......although not for those who would take seriously the words of Christ that every single sheep is of value to the Father.

So if we do not like the Calvinists, we need to head for "mystery".

And bring in the idea of "free will" in one form or another.

Or do we?
Octavarium On January 04, 2018




Pacific North West,
#3New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 11:49:35


Hold up a sec, lem'me think about this...,



Yes.
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018

Banned



Somewhere in, California
#4New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 19:52:21
@tariki Said

Who is YOUR "us", and who is YOUR "them". Who is "chosen" and who is not. And what are the benefits of thinking thus, rather than beginning from the ground of a fundamental "us" that is unbreakable in spite of all our differences.


Us what!?
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018

Banned



Somewhere in, California
#5New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 19:55:36
@tariki Said

A wonderful picture of eternity......although not for those who would take seriously the words of Christ that every single sheep is of value to the Father.


So you must mean YOU sheep (sheeople) not "us" since not all beings consider themselves as sheep (sheeople)!

+1 (Neo)
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#6New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 22:06:08
@wirelessguru1 Said

So you must mean YOU sheep (sheeople) not "us" since not all beings consider themselves as sheep (sheeople)!

+1 (Neo)



What people are is not often what they consider themselves to be, ego often precludes accurate knowledge of self. Few of us are prepared to recognise and accept our role in life.

Far too many are more concerned with how they think things ought to be than with how they actually are.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 22:18:35
@tariki Said

According to the "book" - take your pick which one - it is "god" who is depicted as doing the choosing. And the faithful appear to have various means of relating such "choice" with other words such as "God wills that all be saved." Other texts tell us "many are called but few are chosen", and others that "we were chosen before the foundation the world".

Which all creates the "mystery". If it is a matter of being chosen why doe snot a God of love choose all.



How does that create confusion. Yes God wills that all be saved. If He did not He would not have had His son arrange the preaching work now under way to save any who wish to accept it.

However He accepts that He is not going to get His way in all cases. After all, it is obvious, because if He always got His way this world would not be in the confused mess it currently is. However His original purpose will eventually be fulfilled.

He could, of course, force all to serve and be saved, but that would mean removing our free will, and He will never do that.

When Paul spoke of being chosen from the foundation of the earth, he meant as a group, not as individuals. The plan which is currently nearing completion was formed and announced in the Garden of Eden, though not in detail. However the very fact that Adam and Eve were able to fail Him proves that He does not predestine individuals. Again, to do so would be to remove free will, which He will never do.

Again that fits in with the overall picture, and God's personality.

Many will be called, because, as scripture tells us, and you mention God wants all to be saved. In fact many are being called at the moment, by people like me, who pass on God's word, His message, and the invitation to be amongst the survivors. However few will be chosen because few will choose to accept God's word and follow His son. they will be too intent on following the words of those who would mislead them, Apostate teachers.

In fact this is a perfect example of how you use the bible to interpret that bible. every scripture has to be understood in the light of every other relevant scripture, all has to fit the pattern of the whole, and even more importantly, all has to fit in with the personality of God especially His perfect balance of Love Justice Wisdom and Mercy.

That is who you come to understand the bible, and why it takes time and sturdy, as well as the help of Holy Spirit, to get there.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#8New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 22:26:14
@tariki Said

On another thread I spoke of the genesis of a particular religion, and suggested that how each began does not necessarily determine how it will end.

Having said that, for me, as far as the Abrahamic Faiths are concerned, at the start, in one form or another, we have the idea of the Chosen Ones.

Over time, many have sought to salvage something from the wreckage of such a claim. Perhaps the best attempt is by those who say something along the lines of "Oh yes, we are chosen to be the servants of all others." Good try, I must admit.

Yet it does seem to me that either the heart of reality, the divine, God, whatever...........chooses ALL. Or, if there is ultimately no meaning to existence, and we live in an absurd universe, no one has been chosen.

Once we align ourselves in any way with the idea that some are chosen and not others, the seed of misery is planted, and the seed will sprout. As it has done throughout history. The lost and the saved, the wheat and the chaff, us and them. Often justified by deep and even quite moral thought, yet having within it the seed of discord.

So what about it?

Who is YOUR "us", and who is YOUR "them". Who is "chosen" and who is not. And what are the benefits of thinking thus, rather than beginning from the ground of a fundamental "us" that is unbreakable in spite of all our differences.


In fact the opposite is true.

The very fact that, not only are some chosen, but that God has given us all the guidance we need to ensure that we are amongst them is, as Paul points out, a cause for comfort and hope. After all He has provided that information so that we can ensure that we are amongst the chosen since we can know what it takes to be in that group.

It is not as if what He is asking is impossible, though it's difficulty is commensurate with the value of the reward. What costs nothing, is worth nothing.

God chooses using similar criteria to those used by a good landlord or a good employer. He chooses those who are prepared to make the effort to fit in and make a worthwhile contribution to the whole. It really is as simple as that. After all, God is our Landlord.
futilevoice On October 07, 2016

Deleted



, Illinois
#9New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:02:35
@tariki Said


Yet it does seem to me that either the heart of reality, the divine, God, whatever...........chooses ALL. Or, if there is ultimately no meaning to existence, and we live in an absurd universe, no one has been chosen.
So what about it?

.



@MadCornishBiker Said

In fact the opposite is true.

The very fact that, not only are some chosen, but that God has given us all the guidance we need to ensure that we are amongst them is, as Paul points out, a cause for comfort and hope. After all He has provided that information so that we can ensure that we are amongst the chosen since we can know what it takes to be in that group.



God does not need servants.
We are all creatures of God's creation just like other animals are. They don't worship a God, so why should we?

If God exists then we are all chosen.
Tar On April 28, 2014




San Antonio, Texas
#10New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:10:40
@tariki Said

According to the "book" - take your pick which one - it is "god" who is depicted as doing the choosing. And the faithful appear to have various means of relating such "choice" with other words such as "God wills that all be saved." Other texts tell us "many are called but few are chosen", and others that "we were chosen before the foundation the world".

Which all creates the "mystery". If it is a matter of being chosen why doe snot a God of love choose all.

The Calvinists - if I understand them correctly - claim that their is no mystery. We are chosen and some are damned. Therefore God did not choose all. The saved witness eternally to God's mercy, the damned to His justice. A wonderful picture of eternity......although not for those who would take seriously the words of Christ that every single sheep is of value to the Father.

So if we do not like the Calvinists, we need to head for "mystery".

And bring in the idea of "free will" in one form or another.

Or do we?



the idea of "chosen" is derived from the arrogance of men and women who want a reason to believe they are superior. Find one person who says they are "chosen" and I will show you an arrogant individual
futilevoice On October 07, 2016

Deleted



, Illinois
#11New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:15:09
@Tar Said

the idea of "chosen" is derived from the arrogance of men and women who want a reason to believe they are superior. Find one person who says they are "chosen" and I will show you an arrogant individual



Agreed. But the flip side of that is that person has low self esteem otherwise they would not be searching for ways to feel superior.
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018

Banned



Somewhere in, California
#12New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:19:17
@MadCornishBiker Said

What people are is not often what they consider themselves to be, ego often precludes accurate knowledge of self. Few of us are prepared to recognise and accept our role in life.


Well mad dude, that's exactly why you can't handle the real truth!

@MadCornishBiker Said

Far too many are more concerned with how they think things ought to be than with how they actually are.


Well mad dude, some of us can indeed think for our own selves since we are not brainwashed like you.
Tar On April 28, 2014




San Antonio, Texas
#13New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:23:48
@futilevoice Said

Agreed. But the flip side of that is that person has low self esteem otherwise they would not be searching for ways to feel superior.



low self esteem is a peculiar phenomenon afflicting humans, more or less like a disease of the mind. Religion to them is like prescribing valium to a person with severe pain.

Yes, it will take away the pain... but it will not heal the injury, rather it will prolong it and ... it has terrible side effects
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018

Banned



Somewhere in, California
#14New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:25:10
@futilevoice Said

Agreed. But the flip side of that is that person has low self esteem otherwise they would not be searching for ways to feel superior.


Actually some are indeed superior, like smarter, stronger, etc, than others.
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018

Banned



Somewhere in, California
#15New Post! Jul 29, 2012 @ 23:34:13
@Tar Said

the idea of "chosen" is derived from the arrogance of men and women who want a reason to believe they are superior. Find one person who says they are "chosen" and I will show you an arrogant individual


Actually many of the superior are not necessarily "chosen". Many are just born that way. Like superior blood lines, more intelligence, better karma, etc, etc...
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