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Term Limits - Would They Work?

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jonnythan On August 02, 2014
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Here and there,
#16New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:16:48
@jackmcg Said

Perception, perhaps, of the constituents who keep him employed. He's voting on issues that will impact their families and budgets. He's a wealthy man, a federal official, a US state senator representing Massachusetts, the state he claims as his residence. He supports raising taxes on a myriad of issues, but keeps his boat in a location that the local media claim is done to avoid paying higher Massachusetts taxes re fees or whatever. Bad choice from the voters' aspect. He should be a boy scout in these kinds of issues.


He should pay 6 figures of tax to Massachusetts on a boat built, moored, and maintained in Rhode Island to set an example?

I buy from NewEgg and Abe's of Maine instead of Amazon and B&H to avoid paying sales tax. Does that make me a bad example or corrupt?
jackmcg On August 20, 2010

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West Chester, Pennsylvania
#17New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:19:09
@jonnythan Said

Yes, you stated your position. I'm just asking you to actually defend that position.

You're advocating a major, major public policy and government change. I'm asking you to think about what the real ramifications are going to be - both positive and negative.

It's easy to say "oh I think there should be term limits because politicians are bad" but it's another entirely to actually go deeper and ask "which politicians will be affected by this, and how will throwing them out actually affect their constituents and voters? What will be gained, for example, by tossing Ron Paul out of office?"

It's easy to have an opinion on a topic. Everyone has opinions. What matters, in my opinion, is having informed and rational opinions on a topic. Opinions are worthless - fully-formed, defensible opinions backed by thorough analysis and logical thought are priceless.

So if you just have an idea and a vague opinion, then fine, so be it. But if you have more to offer, please, let us hear it. Your idea has some legs. Let it run.


Thanks, but I want to hear what others have to say or think. I'll comment as we go along, as I'm sure you may. My position and reasoning will "flesh out".
leeberttea On July 24, 2010

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Oxford, Illinois
#18New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:22:20
@jonnythan Said

Why? What's gained from that, exactly? Be specific.


See my original post on the matter. The longer one is in politics the greater the chance for corruption. There's more than enough people in the country to fill positions and it's always good to have new ideas and a different perspective.

Frankly I think we have way too much government and can get by with a lot less. There is this momentum to continually write new regulations but there is a question as to whether or not this is beneficial. Perhaps those in government write new laws to feel as if they are doing something and we see this attitude in the current US Congres. More than once I've herad them say doing something is better than doing nothing, but sometimes doing nothing is the right course.
jackmcg On August 20, 2010

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West Chester, Pennsylvania
#19New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:24:10
@jonnythan Said

He should pay 6 figures of tax to Massachusetts on a boat built, moored, and maintained in Rhode Island to set an example?

I buy from NewEgg and Abe's of Maine instead of Amazon and B&H to avoid paying sales tax. Does that make me a bad example or corrupt?


Nope, and I do the same in Delaware close to my home. Neither of us are US state senators, though. Yes, Kerry should have thought through his decision to keep the boat in Rhode Island. Now he has to defend his decision. News media's saying he did it to avoid taxes. Whether true or not, that's now the story in Boston and he has to address it. He wants another term, this becomes an issue that attaches no matter the circumstances.

Set term limits protect everyone, even the aspiring politician. Get elected, handle the office as well as you can, get out before you do too much harm to yourself and others. Thanks for your service!
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#20New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:32:54
@jackmcg Said

Thanks, but I want to hear what others have to say or think. I'll comment as we go along, as I'm sure you may. My position and reasoning will "flesh out".


You made the proposal. You started a thread advocating for term limits for all politicians no matter the office.

I don't think I'm being too brash or demanding by asking you to more fully support your claim with specifics, examples, and reasoning. It's an intellectually bankrupt exercise to simply throw out "I think we should massively overhaul our governmental system in this one particular way; what does everyone think" without going a little more deeply into it.

Of course, I suspect the reason is that because you can't, but you would never say that.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#21New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:35:03
@leeberttea Said

See my original post on the matter. The longer one is in politics the greater the chance for corruption. There's more than enough people in the country to fill positions and it's always good to have new ideas and a different perspective.

Frankly I think we have way too much government and can get by with a lot less. There is this momentum to continually write new regulations but there is a question as to whether or not this is beneficial. Perhaps those in government write new laws to feel as if they are doing something and we see this attitude in the current US Congres. More than once I've herad them say doing something is better than doing nothing, but sometimes doing nothing is the right course.


How do term limits equate to less government, and is it necessarily good to always "have new ideas" and no consistency term-to-term?

Many of these offices are 2-year terms. Is it necessarily good to throw out the entire office every 2 years no matter how capable, talented, and efficient the person in it?
jackmcg On August 20, 2010

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West Chester, Pennsylvania
#22New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:36:30
@jonnythan Said

You made the proposal. You started a thread advocating for term limits for all politicians no matter the office.

I don't think I'm being too brash or demanding by asking you to more fully support your claim with specifics, examples, and reasoning. It's an intellectually bankrupt exercise to simply throw out "I think we should massively overhaul our governmental system in this one particular way; what does everyone think" without going a little more deeply into it.

Of course, I suspect the reason is that because you can't, but you would never say that.


Schoolyard stuff. Put your position on term limits out there. Happy to comment on it.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#23New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:38:05
@jackmcg Said

Schoolyard stuff. Put your position on term limits out there. Happy to comment on it.


You are the one that started the thread and you are the one advocating for a major fundamental change to how our government works.

I ask you to support your desire for massive, fundamental change to government with more than simple platitudes or vagaries.

Can you? Or is the best you can do to simply throw your idea out there, wash your hands of it, and say "discuss amongst yourselves"?
leeberttea On July 24, 2010

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Oxford, Illinois
#24New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:41:57
@jonnythan Said

How do term limits equate to less government, and is it necessarily good to always "have new ideas" and no consistency term-to-term?

Many of these offices are 2-year terms. Is it necessarily good to throw out the entire office every 2 years no matter how capable, talented, and efficient the person in it?


No term limits don't equate to less government that's a separate issue, though a high turnover might mean less legislation being written and passed which is essentially less government.

Is it necessarily good? Yes. It's better than allowing even good people to stay because eventually they will be corrupted by the system.
jackmcg On August 20, 2010

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West Chester, Pennsylvania
#25New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:42:49
@jonnythan Said

How do term limits equate to less government, and is it necessarily good to always "have new ideas" and no consistency term-to-term?

Many of these offices are 2-year terms. Is it necessarily good to throw out the entire office every 2 years no matter how capable, talented, and efficient the person in it?


Term limits do not mean one term and your out. A set number of terms is acceptable. too. Senators at 6 years per get 2 terms - 12 years. That's plenty of time to do good or bad. House Reps get 6 terms - 12 years, same exercise.

No one knows whether any of this would equate to less government, that's not the issue. The issue is diversity in the office. New ideas come from new people. More independence would be hopeful from the party leaders, perhaps a little more cooperation between opposite sides on issues that directly affect constituents across a broad geographic/demographic area.

New ideas can absolutely be good. Its whether the new idea is good or bad that's important. What has consistency term to term brought us so far with the long-term career politicians??
leeberttea On July 24, 2010

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Oxford, Illinois
#26New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:46:18
@jackmcg Said

Term limits do not mean one term and your out. A set number of terms is acceptable. too. Senators at 6 years per get 2 terms - 12 years. That's plenty of time to do good or bad. House Reps get 6 terms - 12 years, same exercise.

No one knows whether any of this would equate to less government, that's not the issue. The issue is diversity in the office. New ideas come from new people. More independence would be hopeful from the party leaders, perhaps a little more cooperation between opposite sides on issues that directly affect constituents across a broad geographic/demographic area.

New ideas can absolutely be good. Its whether the new idea is good or bad that's important. What has consistency term to term brought us so far with the long-term career politicians??


That's your idea of term limits. Mine would be one 4 year term in any government office and that's it.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#27New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:50:19
@jackmcg Said

Term limits do not mean one term and your out.


At least read your own thread - the poster I was responding to specifically said that he would "make sure it would mean you can serve only once in any government office."
jackmcg On August 20, 2010

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West Chester, Pennsylvania
#28New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:55:42
@jonnythan Said

At least read your own thread - the poster I was responding to specifically said that he would "make sure it would mean you can serve only once in any government office."


You asked for my positions, now you refer me to another poster's position. What has that to do with mine? Lots of different opinions and ideas out there.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#29New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:57:58
@jackmcg Said
New ideas can absolutely be good. Its whether the new idea is good or bad that's important. What has consistency term to term brought us so far with the long-term career politicians??


A number of things, actually.

For one thing, it's brought us politicians who can spend a few terms in, say, a city council position learning about how government works from the inside and helping their constituents in a consistent way before running for mayor and bringing that skill and knowledge to a larger area in a more influential position.

It's given people who have gone on to become Representatives, Senators, or Presidents time to become savvy about national politics on a smaller, more local stage before moving on to other offices.

It's brought us people like Ron Paul who has been an increasingly strong and astonishingly honest and consistent voice of liberty in Congress.

It's brought us judges and fiscal policy makers who apply the law and spend our money in smart ways with long-term and consistent visions year after year. Why would a State Comptroller even consider implementing very-long-term savings and spending measures when he was just going to be gone in a couple of years? The motivation would be skewed heavily towards making maximum immediate impact, not establishing policies for the long haul.

Who wants a President who has never served more than a few years in a single office? Who, exactly, benefits from forcing potential candidates to ramp up the political ladder from, say, city council to President without spending more than a single term in any office?
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#30New Post! Jul 23, 2010 @ 15:59:48
@jackmcg Said

You asked for my positions, now you refer me to another poster's position. What has that to do with mine? Lots of different opinions and ideas out there.


It has nothing to do with yours, which is why I wasn't talking to you.

Please look at post #21, the post by me to which you responded. Look at the top of that box. You will notice there that I quoted leeberttea. That means that the questions and statements in that box were posed to leeberttea and his statements.

I was asking leeberttea those questions, not you. Leeberttea specifically advocated for term limits of one term per office, and I was asking him questions about that.

Thanks.
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