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Scottish Independence Referendum

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Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes
No
Don't Know
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jmo On January 02, 2020
Beruset af Julebryg





Yorkshire, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Jun 03, 2014 @ 21:55:34
On September the 18th everyone living in Scotland over the age of 16 and eligible to vote will be able to chose whether we should become independent from the rest of the UK, or whether we should stick with the union.

Should Scotland be an independent country?
someone_else_again On January 23, 2016
Really. Not a dude.





, Washington
#2New Post! Jun 03, 2014 @ 22:17:59
I will say that I don't know but according to an interesting video in a strangely named thread, a lot of countries began to thrive once they gained their independence from the UK. Of course, this was also quite a long time ago so I don't know if the results would be the same.
jmo On January 02, 2020
Beruset af Julebryg





Yorkshire, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Jun 03, 2014 @ 22:21:49
@someone_else_again Said

I will say that I don't know but according to an interesting video in a strangely named thread, a lot of countries began to thrive once they gained their independence from the UK. Of course, this was also quite a long time ago so I don't know if the results would be the same.



That would probably be different as they would presumably be countries that were occupied by the UK, whilst Scotland is in a voluntary Union with the other four nations that make up the country.

Also looking at countries that used to be part of the British Empire, but aren't any longer, not that many of them are doing particularly well. Though that could be because we went in, messed them up, and left before tidying the mess we made.
someone_else_again On January 23, 2016
Really. Not a dude.





, Washington
#4New Post! Jun 03, 2014 @ 22:47:59
@jmo Said

That would probably be different as they would presumably be countries that were occupied by the UK, whilst Scotland is in a voluntary Union with the other four nations that make up the country.


They were also underdeveloped at the time. Scotland is not.

@jmo Said

Also looking at countries that used to be part of the British Empire, but aren't any longer, not that many of them are doing particularly well. Though that could be because we went in, messed them up, and left before tidying the mess we made.


Yes, there's that too.

Oh and since I forgot to say something in my first post...nice to see you.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#5New Post! Jun 03, 2014 @ 23:18:31
Great Britain is not a very big island. Doesn't seem to make much sense to split it into two nations.
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#6New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 00:39:31
i thought scotland was a independent country , whatever, i thought northern ireland, that is divided. ireland, the one that has all the problems with try to be independent. i don't much about scotland, there is sean connery, bagpipes, men wear kilts without underwears ( that's for the women here. ) and of course, lockwood monster, i dated his sister. leslie lockwood monster. may this topic need the pros and cons why scotland should be independent country.
shadowen On June 15, 2020




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#7New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 14:58:10
Personally i woul love to see the Scots stand up and be a nation once again but of course ultimately the question of whether Scotland should be an independant country or not is one for the Scots and the Scots alone to answer.

What i think is great is that unlike in 1707 when the general populace had no say in the matter this time around all Scots over the age of 16 will have their say.

Note - In 1707 the union was almost universally opposed by the common people of Scotland and countless petitions and riots were ignored. The Scottish nobles on the other hand stood to benefit financially both from the protection of free trade with England and from direct bribes and so the treaty was passed.

Robbie Burns poem "Such Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation" (1791) about the Union of 1707 summed up the feelings of many Scots...

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel even to the Scottish name,
Sae famed in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
And Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force and guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day,
That treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

and from more recent times...

I could tell the meaning of a word like serene
I got some 'O' Grades when I was sixteen
I can tell the difference between magarine and butter
I can say "Saskatchewan" without starting to stutter

But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land, cap in hand
I could get a broken jaw from being in a fight
I know its evening when day turns to night
I can understand why Stranraer lie so lowly
They could save a lot of points by signing Hibs Goalie

But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land, cap in hand

We fight - when they ask us
We boast - then we cower
We beg
For a piece of
Whats already ours

Once I thought I could make God a bribe
So I said I was in his lost tribe
Getting handouts can be so frustrating
"Get in line son, there's five million waiting"

I can't understand why you let someone else rule your land, cap in hand
I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land, cap in hand
I can't understand why you let someone else rule your land, cap in hand
"
shadowen On June 15, 2020




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#8New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 15:19:51
Here are some of the reasons to vote 'yes'. I'll leave the 'no' argument to you jmo

Reasons to vote YES for an Independent Scotland

Below is a selection of the most heard reasons, comments and opinions from Yes-voters. If you agree with most of these reasons then make sure you vote YES at Scotland's Referendum for Scottish Independence.

Taking Responsibility by moving all Governing Powers to Scotland. You would like to get the opportunity to move more responsibilities to a more local Scottish Democracy instead of accept the fate of Westminster's plans? With all the powers moved to Scotland, we can make a fairer Scotland.

Get the Government we choose
The Tories are in power in the UK, although the majority of Scots have chosen the opposition. The Scots are outnumbered ten to one, so whatever government the Scots will vote for in a UK General Election, it's highly unlikely that a Scottish Political Party will ever be part of a UK Government representing Scotland's needs. With the rising votes for UKIP in England, our goals towards a fair and harmonious society will diminish even further.

Securing Oil Funds in North Sea
Scotland's Oil reserves are vast. Most of the revenue and tax made from Oil goes directly to Westminster. There are claims that Scotland will be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe if we become independent.

Scotland has the resources and finances
Scotland has the resources and finances to become independent. One of the early myths created by the No Campaign has been debunked and even the Unionists agree that Scotland has what it takes to become independent and the Scottish people will be better off financially.

Believing in the creation of more jobs
With an ever rising energy and electricity demand in Europe, Scotland could be one of the global leading suppliers. Scotland has many natural resources that allow sustainable energy for which more jobs are created. Furthermore when Scotland becomes Independent, many centralized services and offices, like Tax Offices, DVLA etc have to be set up in Scotland. This will create many jobs and jobs provide an income, which is good for the economy and beneficial for us all.

Believing in the benefits for Scotland and yourself as individual
Not only will there be more jobs, the future Government already has plans for creating better Healthcare and improve the situation for Pensioners and people with children. We'll keep the minimum wages, scrap the bedroom tax, etc.

Believing in a more equal wages
The difference in wage in London compared to Scotland for example is huge. This gap is growing and with the current UK Government the richest only seem to get richer and the poor becoming poorer. With a smaller gap between the highest and lowest incomes, there will be less jealousy, greed and more happiness if we're have more equal wages.

Believing that Scotland and England have opposite Political and Social views
Why should both countries suffer from having to compromise political decisions to please both sides. Let's respect each other and go our own way. In doing so, we'll become better friends and neighbours then we are ever going to be in a forced political marriage.

Understanding that NO may lead to changes for worse
Change is going to happen, whether you vote Yes or No. By voting NO for independence, you will have less control over the changes that are going to change, because the government who makes these decision is still in Westminster. A No Vote for independence will be almost certainly be used by the UK government to withdraw powers from Scottish Government, withdraw funding for Scotland and will be seen as as an act of 'no confidence' in the current Scottish Government. So by voting NO, not only will things be changing, things might be changing for worse.

 
Silver_Lining On November 29, 2019
RIP Boobie





STOKE-ON-TRENT, United Kingdom
#9New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 18:02:50
I voted no, I personally think most Scots will vote no although I think it'll be interesting to see what happens if they do vote for it.
Willi On August 21, 2018




northinmind,
#10New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 18:53:48
Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland
jmo On January 02, 2020
Beruset af Julebryg





Yorkshire, United Kingdom
#11New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 21:10:50
@shadowen Said

Here are some of the reasons to vote 'yes'. I'll leave the 'no' argument to you jmo

Reasons to vote YES for an Independent Scotland

Below is a selection of the most heard reasons, comments and opinions from Yes-voters. If you agree with most of these reasons then make sure you vote YES at Scotland's Referendum for Scottish Independence.

Taking Responsibility by moving all Governing Powers to Scotland. You would like to get the opportunity to move more responsibilities to a more local Scottish Democracy instead of accept the fate of Westminster's plans? With all the powers moved to Scotland, we can make a fairer Scotland.


We already have our own government who decide a high proportion of the decisions that matter. Also we wouldn't be moving all governing powers to Scotland as all of the pro-independence parties want us to be a part of the EU. Not only that but we would lose the favourable conditions that the UK's membership of the EU has, so we would actually be relinquishing power to the EU. I've never understood this notion that we should end London rule whilst being perfectly happy with Brussels rule.

Quote:

Get the Government we choose
The Tories are in power in the UK, although the majority of Scots have chosen the opposition. The Scots are outnumbered ten to one, so whatever government the Scots will vote for in a UK General Election, it's highly unlikely that a Scottish Political Party will ever be part of a UK Government representing Scotland's needs. With the rising votes for UKIP in England, our goals towards a fair and harmonious society will diminish even further.


The Tories are one party in a coalition with the Lib Dems, the Lib Dem and Tory vote together is actually quite significant, and a lot more than 10%. We have the government we choose at Holyrood, whilst having a proportionate representation in Westminster. Democratic deficits are always going to happen. My constituency voted Labour in both the Scottish and UK elections, yet we don't have a Labour government in either parliament, should we become independent from the rest of the UK/Scotland because of this? Of course not, it's silly. It would be like Texas deciding to become independent because the president isn't a Republican. All of the major parties represent the entirety of the UK, including Scotland. Why should there be a Scottish Political Party representing the whole of the UK? Do people in Yorkshire think there should be a Yorkshire political party representing the entirety of the UK? It makes no sense. As for the rising votes for UKIP, the votes for UKIP are actually rising at a higher rate in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK.


Quote:

Securing Oil Funds in North Sea
Scotland's Oil reserves are vast. Most of the revenue and tax made from Oil goes directly to Westminster. There are claims that Scotland will be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe if we become independent.


We receive more money via the Barnett Formula from Westminster than we provide from Oil. We are already one of the wealthiest nations of Europe whilst not being independent.

Quote:


Scotland has the resources and finances
Scotland has the resources and finances to become independent. One of the early myths created by the No Campaign has been debunked and even the Unionists agree that Scotland has what it takes to become independent and the Scottish people will be better off financially.



When was this ever a view of Better Together? Nobody has ever claimed we can't do it, we are claiming we shouldn't do it. Two very different positions.

Quote:

Believing in the creation of more jobs
With an ever rising energy and electricity demand in Europe, Scotland could be one of the global leading suppliers. Scotland has many natural resources that allow sustainable energy for which more jobs are created. Furthermore when Scotland becomes Independent, many centralized services and offices, like Tax Offices, DVLA etc have to be set up in Scotland. This will create many jobs and jobs provide an income, which is good for the economy and beneficial for us all.


And setting up all of these new services costs money. Why create new centralised services when ones already exist for the sake of new jobs? Tax and spend policies will not help.

Quote:


Believing in the benefits for Scotland and yourself as individual
Not only will there be more jobs, the future Government already has plans for creating better Healthcare and improve the situation for Pensioners and people with children. We'll keep the minimum wages, scrap the bedroom tax, etc.



Where is the evidence of more jobs? The Scottish government already has plans for creating better healthcare? Why not implement them now then? Healthcare is already devolved to Holyrood. Interestingly the only party in the UK who voted to protect Scots from the negative impact of the bedroom tax were Labour, a Unionist party. The nationalists decided to abstain.

Quote:


Believing in a more equal wages
The difference in wage in London compared to Scotland for example is huge. This gap is growing and with the current UK Government the richest only seem to get richer and the poor becoming poorer. With a smaller gap between the highest and lowest incomes, there will be less jealousy, greed and more happiness if we're have more equal wages.



Wages are a poor indicator of equality considering the difference in the cost of living between Scotland and London. Wages are higher in Scotland than the national UK average and under Labour the rich/poor gap declined. How exactly will independence miraculously make everyone suddenly more equal? If you don't like the current government, vote for a different party, don't vote to f*** everyone else and try to create a new state.

Quote:


Believing that Scotland and England have opposite Political and Social views
Why should both countries suffer from having to compromise political decisions to please both sides. Let's respect each other and go our own way. In doing so, we'll become better friends and neighbours then we are ever going to be in a forced political marriage.



Scotland and England do not have opposite political and social views. The north of England votes very similarly to Scotland and social surveys suggest our views are more similar than they are with any other individual country. Another myth perpetuated by the Nats to try and create false divisions between Scots and the English.

Quote:


Understanding that NO may lead to changes for worse
Change is going to happen, whether you vote Yes or No. By voting NO for independence, you will have less control over the changes that are going to change, because the government who makes these decision is still in Westminster. A No Vote for independence will be almost certainly be used by the UK government to withdraw powers from Scottish Government, withdraw funding for Scotland and will be seen as as an act of 'no confidence' in the current Scottish Government. So by voting NO, not only will things be changing, things might be changing for worse.


 


Any evidence for this? At all? Every single one of the major UK parties (as in the ones which have any chance of forming the next government) have committed themselves to giving more devolution to Scotland. It won't 'almost certainly be used by the UK government to withdraw powers from Scottish Government', each of the Unionist parties have actually said they will do the opposite.

I don't know where you got these arguments for but they have no evidence and little evidence with stats. Even by Nat standard those are poor arguments.
chaski 1 minutes ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#12New Post! Jun 04, 2014 @ 23:16:44
Dosen't Scotland have its own football team that periodically goes to the World Cup?

What more could Scotland actually want or need...except maybe to have qualified for the 2014...?
shadowen On June 15, 2020




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#13New Post! Jun 05, 2014 @ 15:48:29
I find it interesting that the "no" campaign is using many of the same scare tactics (oops sorry, arguments) that were used by those who opposed the dissolution of Czechoslovakia
shadowen On June 15, 2020




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#14New Post! Jun 05, 2014 @ 15:56:26
Even though i disagree with your comments jmo i am not going to go back and forth with you. You will be voting "no" and you have your reasons, others will vote "yes" and they too have their reasons. All that really matters is that unlike in 1707 this time all Scots (well not those under 16!) will have the chance to decide if they wish to be ina union with england. Despite considerable opposition from most Scots in 1707 a handful of nobles made the decision to agree to a union with england based on what was best for them as opposed to what most Scots wanted (and in 1707 they clealry didnt want to be in a union with england). Indeed, the english use the carrot and stick approach withthese hadful of nobles most effectively.

Whilst the vote looks like being closer than many would have though tit would be just 12 months ago i nonetheless think it extremely unlikely that the "yes" vote will succeed. The fear of the unknown will influence many as yet undecided voters. So i dont think you shall have to move to Yorkshire just yet.

Surely though you must agree that it's a positive thing that Scots finally (300+ yrs down the track) get to vote on the issue of a union with england.
someone_else_again On January 23, 2016
Really. Not a dude.





, Washington
#15New Post! Jun 05, 2014 @ 17:22:48
@shadowen Said



Surely though you must agree that it's a positive thing that Scots finally (300+ yrs down the track) get to vote on the issue of a union with england.



Is England's the only union you take issue with?
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