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4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#1New Post! Feb 25, 2020 @ 02:50:30
Bernie Sanders is now the front runner in the Democratic Party's primary race. He's a socialist who promises he would engage the military to help Taiwan if China were to attempt an invasion according to this CBS article. That brings us to an interesting question; what about North Korea or any of the other socialist dictatorships in our world? Obviously the president doesn't have absolute power, but the Commander in Chief should hold to the values and alliances of our nation.
I am opposed to socialism in general and to Marxism in particular. If a socialist gets elected as president it doesn't mean the country will instantaneously become a socialist nation. But it does bring some questions to mind. Opinions?
4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#2New Post! Feb 25, 2020 @ 17:22:50
Here's a Fox News article on the media's underestimation of Bernie Sanders.

This is an Op-Ed from Fabiola Santiago of the Miami Herald entitled I Went to School in Cuba under Castro, Here's What it's like Bernie Sanders

Here's and article from In These Times that points out Bernie Sanders is the only candidate that openly opposes the Patriot Act . Ridding our country of this anti democratic travesty of a piece of legistlation is a good idea. I wonder why no other candidates are suggesting it?
mrmhead On about 2 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#3New Post! Feb 25, 2020 @ 18:21:01
@4d4m Said

Bernie Sanders is now the front runner in the Democratic Party's primary race. He's a socialist who promises he would engage the military to help Taiwan if China were to attempt an invasion according to this CBS article. That brings us to an interesting question; what about North Korea or any of the other socialist dictatorships in our world? Obviously the president doesn't have absolute power, but the Commander in Chief should hold to the values and alliances of our nation.
I am opposed to socialism in general and to Marxism in particular. If a socialist gets elected as president it doesn't mean the country will instantaneously become a socialist nation. But it does bring some questions to mind. Opinions?


You're right - We won't become a Socialist Nation the day after (if) Bernie is elected.
The media and his opponents are just blowing everything out of proportion - as usual. Something to grab headlines.

Now if (R)Trump claims he is a true Communist (or whatever pigeon-hole-ism) and thinks all corporations should be owned and run by the gov't, I would be worried because he has the whole of the Republican Party deifying and worshiping him, and they would fall in lock-step agreement as he is The Chosen One given to us by GOD. (Except for Romney)

He may have tripped over his words about Castro, but the idea of some kind of "Socialist" healthcare and education system is appealing to him - as well as to many other evolved nations of the world.

And as has been said - If you don't like socialism, Go Buy Your Own Road! (and plenty of other state or national provisions)
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#4New Post! Feb 25, 2020 @ 19:29:32
@4d4m Said


...socialism...



I can't be certain, but I suspect your reference to "socialism" is a system much like the USSR. The USA is more likely to shift to a authoritarian style government than as socialist/communist government.

As to "socialism", the USA is already essentially a democratic socialist country, however, the somewhat more "extreme" socialism that Bernie want isn't even on the table.

1st Bernie would have to beat Trump, which is highly unlikely.

2nd the Senate would have to shift to Democrat control, which is highly unlikely. Otherwise any and all of Bernie's plans would be dead on arrival.

3rd the Democrats would have to maintain control of the House, which is likely but not a certainty.

4th the Democrat controlled congress would have to agree with Bernie, which is also highly unlikely.

Bernie does not realistically present a threat of the USA turning any more "socialist" than it already is.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#5New Post! Feb 25, 2020 @ 19:49:04
A Bernie Sanders presidency has a high likelihood of failure.

Congress won't support most of his ideas. The Republican Senate would shut down all of it. Bernie does not appear to have a network of people to bring in to fill the various Federal presidential appointments to run the government.

Trump's spending is likely to stall the economy. This will be blamed on Bernie and lead to him being a one term president and another Republican coming in. In fact, it isn't inconceivable that Trump would come back claiming something like I saved the U.S. economy and in just 4 years Bernie destroyed it... Re-MAGA!!!

The best that Bernie could hope for is a supreme court justice or two, but if they are not centrist, the Republicans Senate will block them.

...etc....

Bernie is too old and will likely be viewed a a lame duck from day one by politicians in our Congress as well as the world at large.

...etc...
4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#6New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 03:59:53
Socialism and social programs aren't the same thing. No one seems to get that. We have social programs now , they are safety nets and programs to enhance the quality of life of citizens who need them. Particularly valuable in a capitalist economy because they keep the corporate elite from simply taking everything they can from the workers and abandoning them to the ditches when they are done, similar to The Great Depression . Lassez Faire economic policues led to abuses by major companies and unbridled (and false) economic growth. In the end the bubble collapsed and you know the rest of the story. If the sounds like the stock market crash of 2008 to you, then you are paying attention.

Social programs are not socialism. They are two completely different things.

Socialism is a form of economics where the major means of production are controlled by the people. Which really means, the major means of production are controlled by the government. In other words, there would be one news paper like in Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. There would be one bank. There would be one internet company. How very convenient for the government and how easily exploitable this would be for tyrants.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#7New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 04:45:11
@4d4m Said


Socialism is a form of economics where the major means of production are controlled by the people. Which really means, the major means of production are controlled by the government. .



In other words, you are saying that since the major means of production in the USA is controlled by the people (i.e. privately owned corporations), the political system of the USA (i.e. Of the People, By the People, For the People ) is a version of Socialism.

Interesting.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#8New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 04:48:58
@4d4m Said


Social programs are not socialism. They are two completely different things.



And thus when looking at Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, we recognize ii for what it was: A Dictatorship; i.e. an Authoritarian political system.

Yes, there were "social programs", but it was not actually "socialism"... it was Authoritarianism with some social programs used to dupe the masses.

As YOU said... and I do not put words in your mouth, I quote you directly, "Social programs are not socialism. They are two completely different things."
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#9New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 05:01:39
A social democracy is (in the modern sense) essentially a democratic welfare state that incorporates both capitalist and socialist practices. That is, it calls for state regulation (not state ownership) of the means of production, and includes extensive social welfare programs. etc.

>>> The USA <<<

> Regulation of business (production... well all interstate commerce).
> Socialist practices (welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, highways, public works, power grid system, etc.)
> By way of democratic processes (i.e. elected officials).

>>> The USA <<<
4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#10New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 05:37:56
The term "welfare state" is a derogatory propaganda term coined by the right in their assault on social programs.

Social programs have existed in our society despite the fact we have a capitalist form of economics

Socialism is a design for economics AND government created by economists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Getting people to link the two terms "socialism" and "social programs" is an effort to move the populaces mind toward the acceptance of socialism.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#11New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 05:56:44
@4d4m Said

Getting people to link the two terms "socialism" and "social programs" is an effort to move the populaces mind toward the acceptance of socialism.


It is you who seems to be trying to "link the two terms "socialism" and "social programs".

Your reference to Hugo Chavez's Venezuela makes that clear.

Clearly no one else here is linking "socialism" and "social programs".
4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#12New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 11:44:37
@chaski Said

It is you who seems to be trying to "link the two terms "socialism" and "social programs".

Your reference to Hugo Chavez's Venezuela makes that clear.

Clearly no one else here is linking "socialism" and "social programs".


Getting a little defensive there? I didn't say you were saying that.

Here's a link to a Miami Herald Op-ed by Fabiola Santiago who actually DID go to school in Castro's Cuba. It's a open letter to Bernie Sanders.

Just for the fun of it, here's a YouTube link to an open letter to Donald Trump from someone who escaped North Korea.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#13New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 15:16:51
@4d4m Said

Getting a little defensive there?


Why would I be defensive?

I would first have to understand the point you are trying to make, and then decide it offends me. However, as usual, it is hard to understand what that point actually is.

In fact, you seems to bed the one who always acts "defensive" by repeatedly accusing me of editing your posts and/or putting words in your mouth.
4d4m On 24 minutes ago




4dforum.org,
#14New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 17:30:07
Here's a nightmare scenario I hadn't thought of. Fortunately we have a plethora of privately owned news companies in our nation to point this out.
Political Strategy.

The worry among Democratic leaders has been if Sanders wins the nomination there will be a backlash in the Congressional Elections. In other words Democrats would loses seats in the House and Senate to Republicans from districts afraid of Sanders having too much power. This is a historically accurate prediction.

The even bigger worry is Sanders wins the nomination but not the election. Then we end up with Trump and a Republican dominated House and Senate.

I hadn't even thought about that.
chaski On about 13 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#15New Post! Feb 27, 2020 @ 18:14:57
@4d4m Said

Then we end up with Trump and a Republican dominated House and Senate.



Of course we've already had that scenario; 2016-2018.

It doesn't make that big of a difference over all.

The real issue (from a Democrat/Liberal perspective) is Trump President-Republican Senate, which would likely result in at least one more conservative Supreme Court Justice, and possibly two.

That has always been the real GOP agenda.
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