The Forum Site - Join the conversation
Forums: Politics:
UK Elections & Politics

Sadly, This Is What Our Once Great Democracy Is Coming To

Reply to Topic
AuthorMessage
Pages: << · 1 2 3 ...5 6 7 8 · >>
DiscordTiger On about 2 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#91New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 22:46:25
@Jennifer1984 Said

That's ok, hun. It's made for a fascinating read. But yes, we do appear to have had a bit of thread drift.

I'll clarify as briefly as I can on the Irish Border situation, but it's an extremely complex situation so even the Brexit-For-Dummies version may be a bit of a read.... and it probably still won't make sense then.

The Good Friday Agreement which brought peace to Northern Ireland after nearly 40 years of Republican terrorism (and 3000+ deaths) brought great political change to the province. It's too complicated to summarise briefly here, but one of the central points is that even though Northern Ireland (NI) and the Republic (ROI) are two separate sovereign territories, they would be treated as one to all everyday intents and purposes. There would be freedom of movement, trade, employment and all the old sectarian divides that discriminated against Catholics in the north would be swept away by a re-organised Parliament in Stormont that gave Catholic and Protestant, Republican and Unionist an equal voice.

Sounds like a good thing, yeah...?

The open border policy was facilitated by both Britain and the Republic both being in the European Union which meant ease of trade, movement of people, etc wasn't hampered by any other international trading regulations.

When Britain leaves the EU and begins trading under the World Trade Organisation (WTO), we will have to comply with WTO rules. These immediately come into conflict with EU rules and will require a hard border to be set up to control movement of people, trade tariffs being imposed and customs duties being collected.

This isn't the EU being bolshy.... And it isn't negotiable. It's a question of "rules are rules" which neither side is obliged to, or has given any indication that they intend to, budge on.

A closed border is completely unacceptable to people both in NI and ROI. That is, as far as they are concerned, a complete and utter no-no. It would also be a contravention of the Good Friday Agreement which is a legally binding international treaty between Britain and the Republic of Ireland. It's unthinkable that Britain could renege on that. The international ramifications are.... well, unthinkable.

Republicans have already said they wouldn't tolerate it and it could even - worst case scenario - lead to a resumption of terrorism which of course, nobody wants. More likely would be a border poll that would probably result in Northern Ireland uniting with the Republic. And with Scotland looking increasingly likely to have another independence referendum in the next five years, the breakup of the United Kingdom is all but certain.

Think of the southern states intention to leave the union in the 1860's and you'll have some idea of what is at stake here.

The nub of the issue here is that all the time Britain is in the EU there are no barriers to an open border (pun intended), but as soon as Britain begins trading under WTO rules, the various regulations and rules kick in and border controls become mandatory. Not optional.

I can't emphasise enough how strong the depth of feeling about this is in Ireland. It really is a line in the sand that neither side will cross. Both NI and ROI agree on this if nothing else. No hard border. End of.

This was brought up during the referendum campaign and all fears voiced by Remain were pooh-pooh'd as "Project Fear." It would be easy to resolve, they said. We'll have a technological resolution which will make it easy for trade to criss-cross the border seamlessly.

Another answer was that the EU will simply waive their rules because "Britain holds all the cards in negotiations," and "They need us more than we need them so they will concede to our interests."

To the first response, the technology the Brexiters airly referred to doesn't exist and would probably take at least ten years to develop and implement to the satisfaction of both the EU and WTO. And both sides have already said they won't accept it anyway.

The second argument has been wiped out by events. The EU doesn't need us more than we need them and they have palpably wiped the floor with Britain in negotiations. The British government has been out-thought, out-manoeuvered out-negotiated and run ragged at every stage.

A third option has emerged and that is the "Irish Backstop." Of course, it was an EU suggestion that May inserted into her Chequers Plan and Brexiters therefore dismissed it immediately as having come directly from Satan's bottom.

The "Backstop" is a plan whereby Northern Ireland remains in the EU Customs Union for an indefinite period and an invisible border down the Irish Sea between NI and mainland Britain is established.

This would allow the NI/ROI border to remain as it is, and control of movement of people, collection of customs duties, etc would take place at mainland UK points of entry. This would remain in place only for as long as it takes for an agreement to be thrashed out between Britain, the EU and WTO that would be acceptable to both Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Into this equation comes the Democratic Unionist Party of Northern Ireland. Simply put, they will not tolerate NI remaining in the Customs Union. Nor will they tolerate the invisible border down the Irish Sea. This is because they feel they would be "separated" from being a part of Britain.

The Conservative government can't ignore the DUP for one simple reason..... May screwed up by holding the 2017 general election.

By the summer of 2017 it was already obvious that Brexit was going badly and was losing public and Parliamentary support as the truth about what Brexit really meant began to emerge. She felt she didn't have the sort of majority needed in Parliament to get her "red lines" (don't even get me started on those) through the negotiations.

Thinking that all the opinion polls were in her favour she called the election*.... it was an epic fail. The Conservatives lost dozens of seats. They lost what majority they had and actually became a minority government.

May came to an arrangement with the DUP. NI would get £1 billion of taxpayers money (Yep, using taxpayers money as a bribe to benefit the Tory party) and the DUP would deliver their 10 votes in Parliament which would give her a majority. But only just.

It gave May a majority, but an extremely fragile one that held her hostage to her backbenchers. Just a couple of rebel backbenchers could scupper anything she tried to do.

Another twist to all this though, is that a number of opposition MP's support the backstop and a number of government MP's oppose the backstop. This muddies the water as far as numbers are concerned. It's extremely difficult to say which way this or that vote on anything will go.

It's become a numbers game where the party whips twist arms and entrenched self-interest groups such as Jacob Rees-Mogg's European Research Group (ERG) hold the government to ransom on just about everything. The ERG are extreme right-wing, hardl ine, No-Deal Brexiters. They own Theresa May. She has been quite craven in her appeasement of the ERG. They have her in their pocket.

The DUP rejected the backstop plan and have done so resolutely throughout the negotiations. Without DUP agreement the ERG will go against the government on everything, which would make the country ungovernable therefore the backstop is a dead duck and therefore there can be no resolution to the Irish border problem.

Rees-Mogg has recently made some comments that suggest the ERG line is softening but nobody trusts him and there is great suspicion about what he's getting up to behind the scenes.

A hard border seems inevitable without some miracle that isn't even visible as a speck on the far horizon let alone in place by 29 March.






* Two years into a five year fixed term Parliament. Funny isn't it, how calling another election to suit their own interests is "democracy" but giving the people a say on an issue that will affect their lives, once the full facts about what is going to happen have emerged, would be "Anti-democratic".


Yeah, that is a lot, and terribly complex. I do come from a country where going back on treaties was historically common, (think about almost every treaty with Native Americans. It's a horrible precedent and has long last consequences into the future, doing so in an area already deeply impacted with conflict, terrorism, and death seems like an epidemically bad idea.

And from what I understand it is already too late to have another election, (the time needed to coordinate it) that you are pretty much stuck with it, and trying to make due. Which is pretty much like trying to polish a turd (that came from satan's bottom-- which is the best turn of phrase that I read today).

Sounds like there is going to be global ramifications for this. As much as people try to say "country first" (no matter the country) the economy is pretty global, and what impacts one will eventually impact us all. Maybe not as hard, but still.
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#92New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 23:44:19
@chaski Said

War between which countries?




Tangents are tangential.
Jennifer1984 On about 16 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#93New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 23:47:09
@DiscordTiger Said

Yeah, that is a lot, and terribly complex. I do come from a country where going back on treaties was historically common, (think about almost every treaty with Native Americans. It's a horrible precedent and has long last consequences into the future, doing so in an area already deeply impacted with conflict, terrorism, and death seems like an epidemically bad idea.

And from what I understand it is already too late to have another election, (the time needed to coordinate it) that you are pretty much stuck with it, and trying to make due. Which is pretty much like trying to polish a turd (that came from satan's bottom-- which is the best turn of phrase that I read today).

Sounds like there is going to be global ramifications for this. As much as people try to say "country first" (no matter the country) the economy is pretty global, and what impacts one will eventually impact us all. Maybe not as hard, but still.


It is too late for another referendum if Britain is to leave on 29 March. The timeframe for such votes is six months. But the EU would be willing to extend Article 50 in order to facilitate another vote. And before anybody says this is hypocrisy, they have also offered UK an extension of Article 50 to facilitate an agreement over the Irish Backstop if Parliament can find something they can all agree on.

And talking of hypocrisy...... When people accuse us (remainers) of being hypocrites, how about this poster that is one of a series starting to pop up all over the country right now....




Or this......





but my favourite is this.......


chaski On about 3 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#94New Post! Mar 01, 2019 @ 01:44:28
@bob_the_fisherman Said


Tangents are tangential.



Oh please do be tangential, and answer the question.
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#95New Post! Mar 01, 2019 @ 02:35:11
@chaski Said

Oh please do be tangential, and answer the question.


Start a new thread. Tangents are verboten here.
Jennifer1984 On about 16 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#96New Post! Mar 01, 2019 @ 06:00:28
OK... very funny.... Now, please....? Pretty please...?
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#97New Post! Mar 01, 2019 @ 06:34:26
@Jennifer1984 Said

OK... very funny.... Now, please....? Pretty please...?


As I said in my last post to you, I think democracy means upholding the vote. You think democracy is only valid when you win. Where am I entering the realm of unacceptable divergence here?

A no deal Brexit is far more democratic and right than staying in the EU against the will of the people because remoaners like May are too weak willed and cowardly to do what the people voted for.

The fact that you voted remain is, and should be irrelevant. You should be pushing for the British leaders to do their job and get out of the EU, even if it means a no deal Brexit (or just come out and say you do not support democracy. And you are allowed to do that. There's no reason why anyone should pretend to be pro democracy while advocating its overthrow. There are many forms of government other than democracy, and democracy is a long way from perfect).

As I see it you should not be arguing that ignoring a vote you don't like is democratic. You should be arguing something more honest - like why democracy failed in relation to Brexit and should be ignored in the manner that the EU tends to do when people vote in the 'wrong' way.

As I see this, a no deal Brexit will hurt short term, but again, if the UK had leaders who work for the people, instead of muppets who work for the elite EU, the UK would be going full Trump mode and attacking the EU and laying the blame for failing deals 1000% at their feet where it belongs. Let EU nations answer to their people for creating even more unemployment, debt and economic instability in the name of a quest they are on to do things European people have repeatedly shown they do not want.
DiscordTiger On about 2 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#98New Post! Mar 02, 2019 @ 07:08:28
So Jen, this is probably a stupid line of questioning, but I generally just don’t understand the system. (I never took international politics- I opted for additional constitutional law courses.)

But... y’all have a queen. Can’t she just declare doing it without a plan is stupid and not actually exit the EU now (the current deadline) or ever.
Like doesn’t the monarchy have any actual ruling power and if not why even continue to have the royal family maintain titles?

When people are being stupid and arguing over things, it seems like having someone to just “settle it” would solve things. I know on our side of the pond we went to great lengths not to have a king/queen so no one person could step in.
But like the whole time we were bickering over say gay marriage, it could have been settled sooner without having to go through the Supreme Court. Like that took years, and even so it is one court, but a panel of nine. My argument even to you, was we don’t have a queen to step in... but you guys do. Isn’t the Irish border situation big enough to have her step in? I mean especially if a treaty is being violated?

Is the monarchy that much of just a figurehead? Why still have the queen if there is no purpose other than the pageantry? I just don’t understand.
gakINGKONG On about 11 hours ago




, Florida
#99New Post! Mar 02, 2019 @ 16:48:08
@DiscordTiger Said

So Jen, this is probably a stupid line of questioning, but I generally just don’t understand the system. (I never took international politics- I opted for additional constitutional law courses.)

But... y’all have a queen. Can’t she just declare doing it without a plan is stupid and not actually exit the EU now (the current deadline) or ever.
Like doesn’t the monarchy have any actual ruling power and if not why even continue to have the royal family maintain titles?

When people are being stupid and arguing over things, it seems like having someone to just “settle it” would solve things. I know on our side of the pond we went to great lengths not to have a king/queen so no one person could step in.
But like the whole time we were bickering over say gay marriage, it could have been settled sooner without having to go through the Supreme Court. Like that took years, and even so it is one court, but a panel of nine. My argument even to you, was we don’t have a queen to step in... but you guys do. Isn’t the Irish border situation big enough to have her step in? I mean especially if a treaty is being violated?

Is the monarchy that much of just a figurehead? Why still have the queen if there is no purpose other than the pageantry? I just don’t understand.


Great point. I wonder if the queen could decide this was serious enough to make a pronouncement.
gakINGKONG On about 11 hours ago




, Florida
#100New Post! Mar 02, 2019 @ 16:50:21
I'm a dispassionate bystander.

Overall it seems very problematic to overturn a vote of the people.
Conflict On August 10, 2020




Alcalá de Henares, Spain
#101New Post! Mar 02, 2019 @ 21:41:43
Can the UK uphold the principle of not allowing another world conflict to take place or take part in it? We've got to consider how the long-term goal of promoting world peace, which is said to be the most cherished objective ofthe EU. Apart, the UK believes it can duplicate the EU's wishes. Is that so?
Jennifer1984 On about 16 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#102New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 16:06:36
@Conflict Said

Can the UK uphold the principle of not allowing another world conflict to take place or take part in it? We've got to consider how the long-term goal of promoting world peace, which is said to be the most cherished objective ofthe EU. Apart, the UK believes it can duplicate the EU's wishes. Is that so?



I'm not sure that it can. There is the vexed question of the so-called "EU Army" which is being portrayed here as a new EU initiative, but isn't. It's been around for a while now.

The Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) is the EU's plan of action in the fields of defence and crisis management.

Since 2002 the EU has intervened in abroad 30 times on 3 different continents so this isn't a new thing.

The Brexiters are foaming at the mouth because in November last year, during the centenary of the WWI Armistice commemorations, President Macron of France made a speech where he responded to President Trump's call for Europe to commit more to its own defence rather than rely on American military strength to defend the continent.

He said that "We must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States." Angela Merkel endorsed these comments and this was portrayed in UK by Brexiters as the EU demanding that Britain put its own armed forces under EU command.

Of course, nothing of the sort was being proposed. What was being proposed was a strengthening of European nations co-operation in joint forces and placing a greater emphasis on the defence of the European continent.

The Gammons are still lying about this though and as usual it's being trumpeted in the Tory media as another example of British sovereignty being sold out to the Satanic cult of pan-Europeanism.
chaski On about 3 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#103New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 16:08:19
@gakINGKONG Said


Overall it seems very problematic to overturn a vote of the people.


Unless it is another country and "we" don't like what they voted for.
mrmhead On about 2 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#104New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 17:29:24
@chaski Said

Unless it is another country and "we" don't like what they voted for.



So if UK takes another vote and it comes in "Stay", then Trump and Putin can invade and make them leave?

.. I suppose if UK staying causes a "National Emergency" for the US, Trumpsterf*** can just sign another Executive Order and invade!!

This is what our democracy is coming to.
Jennifer1984 On about 16 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#105New Post! Mar 18, 2019 @ 18:36:46
Speaker of the House of Commons has invoked centuries old legislation which prevents Theresa May bringing a third vote (MV3) on the Withdrawal Agreement (WA), usually referred to as "The Deal".

He is perfectly entitled to do this and it means MV3 cannot now take place unless the WA motion is "Significantly altered". May cannot significantly alter the motion without EU agreement to amend the WA agreement which they will not do.

WA is now deader than Monty Python's parrot. The only way May could get a change to that position would be to prorogue Parliament (end the Parliamentary session) and re-start it. This would mean Parliament being re-opened by Royal assent (The Queen's Speech) in which she specifically overrides the Speaker. This has never.... ever....... EVER happened. It's unthinkable that any Prime Minister would put the monarch in that position but rumours are already being leaked from Number 10 that this option is being considered.

We are now on the brink of a constitutional crisis.

What many people don't realise is that United Kingdom does not have a written constitution. We have statutes. Call it a "Rule Book" if you like, and the Speaker is simply following those rules. The system has served us well for centuries but this Prime Minister has attempted to bend the system, subvert it, get around it at every stage and has even been found guilty of Contempt of Parliament... the only Prime Minister to have ever been found guilty of this. And yet.... because of the European Reform Group (ERG) within her party, she has seen off not one, but TWO votes of no confidence and still hasn't resigned.

Bottom line...? Frankly, I don't know how this is going to pan out. The graphic below shows all the possible permutations, but which will happen we just don't know. All the time Theresa May is in office, anything can happen.

The only thing we know for sure, none of it is going to be good.

I don't know how readable this will come out so please magnify if you want to read it, but it covers everything.... as things stand. In a couple of hours it may all go completely out of the window. That's how bad things are now.




Brexiters are furious about what Bercow has done... and the ironic thing about that is that they were adamant Britain should leave the EU in order to "Take back control of our laws"..... and now they're complaining because the Speaker of the House is using British laws that were in place long before the EU was ever thought of.

Oh, the irony of it all.
Reply to Topic<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>
Pages: << · 1 2 3 ...5 6 7 8 · >>

1 browsing (0 members - 1 guest)

Quick Reply
Politics Forum - Some Rudeness Allowed

      
Subscribe to topic prefs

Similar Topics
    Forum Topic Last Post Replies Views
New posts   Politics
Tue Jan 24, 2006 @ 11:44
2 801
New posts   Politics
Wed Feb 22, 2017 @ 04:28
1 168
New posts   Racism
Tue Mar 20, 2012 @ 18:37
18 1874
New posts   News & Current Events
Fri Jun 06, 2014 @ 00:13
79 2496
New posts   Racism
Mon Jul 01, 2013 @ 03:21
19 2433