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Sadly, This Is What Our Once Great Democracy Is Coming To

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nooneinparticular On about 14 hours ago




, Hawaii
#76New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 04:34:17
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Because anyone who thinks about politics at all realises that the pork is really porkies, so to speak.


Ah I see. So only people who agree with you regarding government spending should be allowed to vote because it's self evident, eh? That only the people who reach the same conclusions as you should be allowed to vote doesn't strike you as the least bit dangerous?
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#77New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 05:10:56
@nooneinparticular Said

Ah I see. So only people who agree with you regarding government spending should be allowed to vote because it's self evident, eh? That only the people who reach the same conclusions as you should be allowed to vote doesn't strike you as the least bit dangerous?



As I expressly said when first making this comment, someone like Chaski with whom I disagree on many things, especially political things, would be given the privilege of voting. I do not adhere to the principle that if you disagree with me you are a moron. You might be a moron, but disagreement alone is insufficient evidence. Likewise, there will be people who agree with me who I think should not have the privilege of voting.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#78New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 05:26:14
@bob_the_fisherman Said

As I expressly said when first making this comment, someone like Chaski with whom I disagree on many things, especially political things, would be given the privilege of voting.


You are too kind.

If I wasn't me, I wouldn't want to let me vote.



...unless I bribed me with a case or two of Tequila... or Brandy... or Whiskey... or Rum... or just got me very drunk so I would vote for literally anything... of course a new blue dress goes a long way toward getting what you want also...
nooneinparticular On about 14 hours ago




, Hawaii
#79New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 05:44:37
@bob_the_fisherman Said

As I expressly said when first making this comment, someone like Chaski with whom I disagree on many things, especially political things, would be given the privilege of voting. I do not adhere to the principle that if you disagree with me you are a moron. You might be a moron, but disagreement alone is insufficient evidence. Likewise, there will be people who agree with me who I think should not have the privilege of voting.


Which throws us back into your earlier comment. So either anyone who believes that political pork is not purely self serving should not be allowed to vote or what? The problem with drawing a line in the sand when it comes to competence dictating who has a say in society is that that line can be moved at will.
Jennifer1984 On about 15 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#80New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 07:01:17
@DiscordTiger Said

Sorry, Jen. I din't mean to derail...just to agree that I don't understand the motivation of some voters and the surprise they claim when circumstances end up not in their favor.

I don't know a lot about Brexit, most of my info is from Jaime Oliver in a amusing half hour story. But, it sure sounds like a mess, especially on the Irish border.



That's ok, hun. It's made for a fascinating read. But yes, we do appear to have had a bit of thread drift.

I'll clarify as briefly as I can on the Irish Border situation, but it's an extremely complex situation so even the Brexit-For-Dummies version may be a bit of a read.... and it probably still won't make sense then.

The Good Friday Agreement which brought peace to Northern Ireland after nearly 40 years of Republican terrorism (and 3000+ deaths) brought great political change to the province. It's too complicated to summarise briefly here, but one of the central points is that even though Northern Ireland (NI) and the Republic (ROI) are two separate sovereign territories, they would be treated as one to all everyday intents and purposes. There would be freedom of movement, trade, employment and all the old sectarian divides that discriminated against Catholics in the north would be swept away by a re-organised Parliament in Stormont that gave Catholic and Protestant, Republican and Unionist an equal voice.

Sounds like a good thing, yeah...?

The open border policy was facilitated by both Britain and the Republic both being in the European Union which meant ease of trade, movement of people, etc wasn't hampered by any other international trading regulations.

When Britain leaves the EU and begins trading under the World Trade Organisation (WTO), we will have to comply with WTO rules. These immediately come into conflict with EU rules and will require a hard border to be set up to control movement of people, trade tariffs being imposed and customs duties being collected.

This isn't the EU being bolshy.... And it isn't negotiable. It's a question of "rules are rules" which neither side is obliged to, or has given any indication that they intend to, budge on.

A closed border is completely unacceptable to people both in NI and ROI. That is, as far as they are concerned, a complete and utter no-no. It would also be a contravention of the Good Friday Agreement which is a legally binding international treaty between Britain and the Republic of Ireland. It's unthinkable that Britain could renege on that. The international ramifications are.... well, unthinkable.

Republicans have already said they wouldn't tolerate it and it could even - worst case scenario - lead to a resumption of terrorism which of course, nobody wants. More likely would be a border poll that would probably result in Northern Ireland uniting with the Republic. And with Scotland looking increasingly likely to have another independence referendum in the next five years, the breakup of the United Kingdom is all but certain.

Think of the southern states intention to leave the union in the 1860's and you'll have some idea of what is at stake here.

The nub of the issue here is that all the time Britain is in the EU there are no barriers to an open border (pun intended), but as soon as Britain begins trading under WTO rules, the various regulations and rules kick in and border controls become mandatory. Not optional.

I can't emphasise enough how strong the depth of feeling about this is in Ireland. It really is a line in the sand that neither side will cross. Both NI and ROI agree on this if nothing else. No hard border. End of.

This was brought up during the referendum campaign and all fears voiced by Remain were pooh-pooh'd as "Project Fear." It would be easy to resolve, they said. We'll have a technological resolution which will make it easy for trade to criss-cross the border seamlessly.

Another answer was that the EU will simply waive their rules because "Britain holds all the cards in negotiations," and "They need us more than we need them so they will concede to our interests."

To the first response, the technology the Brexiters airly referred to doesn't exist and would probably take at least ten years to develop and implement to the satisfaction of both the EU and WTO. And both sides have already said they won't accept it anyway.

The second argument has been wiped out by events. The EU doesn't need us more than we need them and they have palpably wiped the floor with Britain in negotiations. The British government has been out-thought, out-manoeuvered out-negotiated and run ragged at every stage.

A third option has emerged and that is the "Irish Backstop." Of course, it was an EU suggestion that May inserted into her Chequers Plan and Brexiters therefore dismissed it immediately as having come directly from Satan's bottom.

The "Backstop" is a plan whereby Northern Ireland remains in the EU Customs Union for an indefinite period and an invisible border down the Irish Sea between NI and mainland Britain is established.

This would allow the NI/ROI border to remain as it is, and control of movement of people, collection of customs duties, etc would take place at mainland UK points of entry. This would remain in place only for as long as it takes for an agreement to be thrashed out between Britain, the EU and WTO that would be acceptable to both Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Into this equation comes the Democratic Unionist Party of Northern Ireland. Simply put, they will not tolerate NI remaining in the Customs Union. Nor will they tolerate the invisible border down the Irish Sea. This is because they feel they would be "separated" from being a part of Britain.

The Conservative government can't ignore the DUP for one simple reason..... May screwed up by holding the 2017 general election.

By the summer of 2017 it was already obvious that Brexit was going badly and was losing public and Parliamentary support as the truth about what Brexit really meant began to emerge. She felt she didn't have the sort of majority needed in Parliament to get her "red lines" (don't even get me started on those) through the negotiations.

Thinking that all the opinion polls were in her favour she called the election*.... it was an epic fail. The Conservatives lost dozens of seats. They lost what majority they had and actually became a minority government.

May came to an arrangement with the DUP. NI would get £1 billion of taxpayers money (Yep, using taxpayers money as a bribe to benefit the Tory party) and the DUP would deliver their 10 votes in Parliament which would give her a majority. But only just.

It gave May a majority, but an extremely fragile one that held her hostage to her backbenchers. Just a couple of rebel backbenchers could scupper anything she tried to do.

Another twist to all this though, is that a number of opposition MP's support the backstop and a number of government MP's oppose the backstop. This muddies the water as far as numbers are concerned. It's extremely difficult to say which way this or that vote on anything will go.

It's become a numbers game where the party whips twist arms and entrenched self-interest groups such as Jacob Rees-Mogg's European Research Group (ERG) hold the government to ransom on just about everything. The ERG are extreme right-wing, hardl ine, No-Deal Brexiters. They own Theresa May. She has been quite craven in her appeasement of the ERG. They have her in their pocket.

The DUP rejected the backstop plan and have done so resolutely throughout the negotiations. Without DUP agreement the ERG will go against the government on everything, which would make the country ungovernable therefore the backstop is a dead duck and therefore there can be no resolution to the Irish border problem.

Rees-Mogg has recently made some comments that suggest the ERG line is softening but nobody trusts him and there is great suspicion about what he's getting up to behind the scenes.

A hard border seems inevitable without some miracle that isn't even visible as a speck on the far horizon let alone in place by 29 March.






* Two years into a five year fixed term Parliament. Funny isn't it, how calling another election to suit their own interests is "democracy" but giving the people a say on an issue that will affect their lives, once the full facts about what is going to happen have emerged, would be "Anti-democratic".
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#81New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 09:15:32
@nooneinparticular Said

Which throws us back into your earlier comment. So either anyone who believes that political pork is not purely self serving should not be allowed to vote or what? The problem with drawing a line in the sand when it comes to competence dictating who has a say in society is that that line can be moved at will.


conflation much?

I didn't say the refusal to accept barrels of pork is sufficient grounds for voting privileges, I said those who have shown sufficient grounds for voting privileges would know a barrel of pork is a load of porkies. These are not the same thing.
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#82New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 09:18:59
@chaski Said

You are too kind.

If I wasn't me, I wouldn't want to let me vote.



...unless I bribed me with a case or two of Tequila... or Brandy... or Whiskey... or Rum... or just got me very drunk so I would vote for literally anything... of course a new blue dress goes a long way toward getting what you want also...



I didn't say I'd want you to vote, I just said I think you should be allowed to if you want. However, if a bottle of tequila is enough to get you to vote for the God-Emperor Trump, then I think that's a fair deal
Jennifer1984 On about 15 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#83New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 09:51:40
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I didn't say I'd want you to vote, I just said I think you should be allowed to if you want. However, if a bottle of tequila is enough to get you to vote for the God-Emperor Trump, then I think that's a fair deal



Please Bob - and the others involved...... stop spamming the thread. This is not the place for what you're talking about. This isn't just thread drift, this is spam and that's not fair when I'm trying to get a message out about an extremely serious issue.

Please feel free to contribute if you have something to say about the topic matter, otherwise start your own thread if you want. But please leave this one alone if you have nothing to say that is on topic.

I'm copying this to Eaglebauer in the hope he will take action because I think you're doing it deliberately to de-rail the discussion.
nooneinparticular On about 14 hours ago




, Hawaii
#84New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 10:58:41
@Jennifer1984 Said

Please Bob - and the others involved...... stop spamming the thread. This is not the place for what you're talking about. This isn't just thread drift, this is spam and that's not fair when I'm trying to get a message out about an extremely serious issue.

Please feel free to contribute if you have something to say about the topic matter, otherwise start your own thread if you want. But please leave this one alone if you have nothing to say that is on topic.

I'm copying this to Eaglebauer in the hope he will take action because I think you're doing it deliberately to de-rail the discussion.


Apologies for the derailment. As an attempt to get back closer to the original point, I find these complications morbidly interesting since I was assured on this site numerous times by people who supported Brexit that there was a plan in place to address this and numerous other issues. From my perspective, it honestly just appears that the government is winging it. If there is some plan in place, then it's certainly not apparent to me.
DiscordTiger On 56 minutes ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#85New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 14:54:25
Mod hat on:

Yes please, can we get back on topic in this thread.

A new thread can be made to continue the other conversation if desired.

Thanks.
Jennifer1984 On about 15 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#86New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 17:22:36
@nooneinparticular Said

Apologies for the derailment. As an attempt to get back closer to the original point, I find these complications morbidly interesting since I was assured on this site numerous times by people who supported Brexit that there was a plan in place to address this and numerous other issues. From my perspective, it honestly just appears that the government is winging it. If there is some plan in place, then it's certainly not apparent to me.



Thanks for that.

A major part of the problem was that nobody expected Leave to win. And this was part of the reason why they did. The Remain campaign was very complacent and a lot or people who have subsequently said they would have voted remain, didn't do so on the day because they thought the outcome was a foregone conclusion and their vote wasn't needed.

But the Leave campaign was very aggressive and employed an individual named Dominic Cummings as their attack dog. He is a man highly skilled in orchestrating subversive operations and he realised.... as the Trump campaign did.... the value of social media.

One (just one of many) of the things he did was use personal data stolen from Facebook... some several million accounts.... by a company called Cambridge Analytica. They created an algorithm which analysed individual voting intentions and bombarded those who were "undecided" with pro-leave propaganda relentlessly in the run up to the referendum. One such piece of propaganda said that Turkey was about to join the EU (it wasn't and still isn't) and that up to six million Turks would move to Britain within a year. This was taken up by several UK pro-Brexit newspapers and made into a front page splash.

It's estimated that up to two million votes could have been swayed in this way.

The use of criminally obtained data on its own would have been enough to render the outcome null and void, but I've explained why that can't happen in a previous post.

So.... acknowledging that nobody expected Leave to win, when it happened there was no forethought or preparation for what to do next. David Cameron resigned as Prime Minister, Theresa May took over and we've descended into chaos from that moment.

She was pressured by the right wing of her party and the Tory press into activating Article 50 too soon and immediately the clock began to tick down.

All that barely scratches the surface of what happened back then, and since.
Conflict On August 10, 2020




Alcal√° de Henares, Spain
#87New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 20:59:25
My sister and my best friend both believe that Brexit shouldn't happen. They have both told me that the EU was founded so that there'd never be another world war and we could all live in peace, without fear of any human bigotries or bias. I for one agree with them. Teresa May has dug herself a grave and if she's not careful, the EU will fill it and look for someone with a more open mind and a desire to promote the goal of better international cooperation.
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#88New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 21:34:53
@Jennifer1984 Said

I'm copying this to Eaglebauer in the hope he will take action because I think you're doing it deliberately to de-rail the discussion.


Was that "you" third person specific (ie., aimed at me)? If so, you may want to go have a look at how the tangent developed. I was discussing the topic - you complaining cos your side lost, and wanting a new vote on the pretext that the people were wrong first time, so they should vote again until you get the vote you're after... and you trying to justify it by calling it democratic, which is a ploy so thin a blind man in a black hole wearing a blindfold can see through it. But it convinces you. And that's the main thing.

If you supported democracy you would support Brexit. But let's be honest, the left and the EU don't do democracy. Complaining about how the leave team 'lied' and overspent when the propaganda machine was in full swing behind remain, and where most of the political class were remainers and are now remoaners, suggests that you think British people are complete morons.

However, many people simply voted for what they believed in despite the fear campaigns about economic collapse etc. I am sure Geldof abusing fishermen helped.

And at least be honest - this thread is not about informing, it's about complaining that you lost.

As to the derailing: One post from me responding to someone else led to a generic conversation about democracy in a thread with a title about democracy.

Me saying people should have to earn the privilege of voting in a thread where you complain about how democracy is unfair because your opponent lied to people? Seems relevant to me. You seem to think the average UK voter is a barely literate, incompetent clown who can't work out that people are dishonest at election time... and that your side was not lying about all kinds of things, including economic collapse. Or that lying is not what politicians do. Or that media don't lie all the time - especially in the UK where lying is an art form.

Now back to the real topic: The incompetence of May and the anti-democracy EU. For goodness sake, I could take over Brexit negotiations and do a better job than the current moron. It's very simple - deal with "us" (the UK), or watch your companies lose s*** loads of business as we go elsewhere.

Believe it or not, some companies on the continent will be upset if they suddenly lost trade with the UK. If May was not incompetent she would have made it repeatedly clear in public that the problem is the anti-democratic fervour on the continent, and any loss of trade with the UK and resultant job losses in France and Germany etc., sits 100% on their shoulders. Simple, really.

Yes, there might be a few struggles during transition if the EU decide punishing democracy is more important than jobs for their own people, but that will pass. And it's not like the UK has not endured hardship courtesy of the continent, especially Germany, before.

And it's not like Trump didn't tell May he will do all he can to help the UK during the transition because, as a democracy hating fascist, he supports the democratic will of the British people that the pro-democracy anti-fascist left want to overturn. Orwell would be so pleased.

This deal farce is a sideshow for the easily manipulated. We all know the EU hates democracy. How many votes have they ignored or overturned, or, like you now, called for another vote because the first vote was "wrong"? There's a list somewhere, I'll see if I can find it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-15541948

This BBC article gives examples. Normally I avoid the Blatantly Biased Conmen, but as this article is useful I'll use it while noting the BBC needs to be shut down in light of recent events. Working with left wing hate groups to lie, attack and slander the innocent is a bit rich - even for a state run propaganda network.
bob_the_fisherman On August 01, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#89New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 21:36:44
@Conflict Said

My sister and my best friend both believe that Brexit shouldn't happen. They have both told me that the EU was founded so that there'd never be another world war and we could all live in peace, without fear of any human bigotries or bias. I for one agree with them. Teresa May has dug herself a grave and if she's not careful, the EU will fill it and look for someone with a more open mind and a desire to promote the goal of better international cooperation.



And yet the EU and its member states are actively making war more inevitable as we speak.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#90New Post! Feb 28, 2019 @ 21:38:42
@bob_the_fisherman Said

And yet the EU and its member states are actively making war more inevitable as we speak.



War between which countries?
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