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Repub bill HR 358 "Let Women Die"

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DorkySupergirl On November 02, 2017




, Canada
#16New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:47:57
@jonnythan Said

Not quite like that.

If this bill becomes law, you are allowed to choose to have an abortion to save your life... but the hospital has the right to deny you said abortion.


Thanks. I see but is that still violating the rule of a doctor not being allowed to harm someone. If a doctor knows that failure to provide me said abortion is going to kill me, is that not causing harm to me?

His failure to provide me a service is going to kill me. In my mind that is the same as me showing up with a gun shot wound and being allowed to bleed to death.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#17New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:48:47
@shinobinoz Said

That is what Supergirl said!


No, it's not what she said at all.

The vast majority of hospitals would not deny a woman a lifesaving abortion if she chose to have one. The distinction that you can choose to have one but that the hospital can deny it, versus not being able to choose to have one in the first place, is incredibly significant.
DorkySupergirl On November 02, 2017




, Canada
#18New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:49:15
@shinobinoz Said

That is what Supergirl said! That is exactly how this will play out now in some places & some hospitals.


I was under the impression that all hospitals and doctors would refuse me a life saving abortion but I see now that some will let me do it and some will refuse me. So now my question, the ones that refuse are in violation of the oath of not to do harm.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#19New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:49:20
@DorkySupergirl Said

Thanks. I see but is that still violating the rule of a doctor not being allowed to harm someone.


Depends on how you define "someone." To many people, a fetus is itself a "someone."
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#20New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:51:49
@jonnythan Said

Depends on how you define "someone." To many people, a fetus is itself a "someone."


Once it is viable or born. The mother's life should always be first priority and then that decision between her & her doctor- not the republicans & not the church.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#21New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:52:37
@shinobinoz Said

Once it is viable or born.


That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.
DorkySupergirl On November 02, 2017




, Canada
#22New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:52:48
@jonnythan Said

No, it's not what she said at all.

The vast majority of hospitals would not deny a woman a lifesaving abortion if she chose to have one. The distinction that you can choose to have one but that the hospital can deny it, versus not being able to choose to have one in the first place, is incredibly significant.



@jonnythan Said

Depends on how you define "someone." To many people, a fetus is itself a "someone."


I understand some states recognize a fetus as a someone before it has taken a breath of air and some states, if memory is correct, a fetus is only a someone when it has taken its first breath of air. But still, even if the fetus is a someone, you are choosing one someone over another. A doctor who refuses a life saving abortion is really choosing to kill one someone to another someone and to me that is playing God, which is also in the oath that they are not allowed to do.

If a fetus is a someone and we allow another someone to die to save it, its the same as both of us going to hospital and they look at me and you and decide what one of us is more valuable and choose to save me over you or vice versa, playing God.
chisa96 On December 29, 2014
Supreme Goddess





Out in Nature, Wisconsin
#23New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:54:04
@jonnythan Said

Not quite like that.

If this bill becomes law, you are allowed to choose to have an abortion to save your life... but the hospital has the right to deny you said abortion.



Didn't they already though? I mean, it's perfectly understandable that a doctor should be able to decide if they're willing to perform abortions. The same way that you shouldn't force a woman into choosing abortion, you shouldn't be able to force a doctor to perform one.

The same applies to hospitals. If they don't want to perform abortions in any circumstances, and don't have any doctors staffed that are willing to do so, shouldn't they have the right to make that decision?

Abortion is not only a touchy subject when considering the women wanting to have them; it could also be incredible difficult for the doctor deciding to perform the procedure. They should be protected too if they decide that they simply cannot do so.

I don't really see what is so wrong with this. Is it denying women the right to transfer to a hospital that is willing to perform the procedure?
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#24New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:56:47
@DorkySupergirl Said

I understand some states recognize a fetus as a someone before it has taken a breath of air and some states, if memory is correct, a fetus is only a someone when it has taken its first breath of air. But still, even if the fetus is a someone, you are choosing one someone over another. A doctor who refuses a life saving abortion is really choosing to kill one someone to another someone and to me that is playing God, which is also in the oath that they are not allowed to do.

If a fetus is a someone and we allow another someone to die to save it, its the same as both of us going to hospital and they look at me and you and decide what one of us is more valuable and choose to save me over you or vice versa, playing God.


There is a significant ethical difference between a positive act to terminate someone's life and a passive act to allow someone to die.

Doctors have to make difficult decisions like this. Most people find it much more difficult emotionally to actually perform the killing action than to simply allow someone to die.

To a doctor who views both the mother and the fetus as independent human beings, he has the choice of either performing the killing act on one to save the other, or allowing one to die to save the other. Both are horrendous choices, obviously, but to a physician who genuinely and honestly believes that a fetus is a person (and, in reality, there is solid scientific basis for this belief), the choice is pretty clear - he must allow the mother to die to save the fetus.
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#25New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 18:59:06
@shinobinoz Said

The statement was for current law- not the one that passed- so NO they will not have to transfer.
That may sound like a minor thing (let the woman check the hospital before.......) but many many states are sparse enough that that is your only hospital. And if it is an emergency the woman risks death jus t because!



What are the chances that the only hospital in the area will be one that denies that right?

I'm not saying it's not a horrible bill. In fact, I said it was appalling and I'm sure people will be fighting to repeal it, but as a percentage, I can't see this effecting that many people.

Re-educate!!! (not you...people in general)
DorkySupergirl On November 02, 2017




, Canada
#26New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:05:28
@jonnythan Said

There is a significant ethical difference between a positive act to terminate someone's life and a passive act to allow someone to die.

Doctors have to make difficult decisions like this. Most people find it much more difficult emotionally to actually perform the killing action than to simply allow someone to die.

To a doctor who views both the mother and the fetus as independent human beings, he has the choice of either performing the killing act on one to save the other, or allowing one to die to save the other. Both are horrendous choices, obviously, but to a physician who genuinely and honestly believes that a fetus is a person (and, in reality, there is solid scientific basis for this belief), the choice is pretty clear - he must allow the mother to die to save the fetus.


I think its horrible. I think its playing God. I think its up to me to decide if I want to live and not up to a doctor to decide to who gets to live and who gets to die.

Its not a woman using abortion for birth control, its someone who wants to live and we can't deny that right.

I could see if perhaps during child birth and the doctor has a split second to make a choice, I see that as different. To me its killing someone if they walk in and say, these tests show I am going to die if I give birth, please, let me live and give me an abortion.

All attempts must be taken to save someones life and no matter if I see a fetus as a someone or not, allowing and knowing that someone is going to die to give birth to the someone is killing them. I would not want that blood on my hands.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#27New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:07:54
@DorkySupergirl Said

I think its horrible. I think its playing God.


That's what doctors do.


Let me ask you something: would you feel OK demanding that a doctor kill my grandmother if it would prevent you from dying?
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#28New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:12:20
@jonnythan Said

That's what doctors do.




I agree. For some reason, people only mention 'playing God' when it comes to killing people - but if you save someone who would have otherwise died, did you not just play God then?
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#29New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:21:05
@jonnythan Said

That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.


Based on science!
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#30New Post! Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:23:40
@shinobinoz Said

Based on science!


Huh?

If you want to take a purely scientific stand on abortion, then you would be pro-life.
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