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Removing Statues Doesn't Erase History

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Jennifer1984 On July 03, 2020
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 12:52:17
Like most people, I've learned a lot more about Edward Colston than I knew before his statue was dumped in the Avon two weeks ago by BLM protesters (or Howling Mob depending on which paper you read). I suggest this is probably true of most people in UK, including those bewailing its removal.

We've been here before. In 2017 there were major issues in US over the removal of statues relating to figures of the Confederacy, including a violent reaction by an actual howling mob.

In both instances, the argument was put forward that removal of statues constitutes the erasing of history. This argument was nonsense then and its nonsense now. I can make a simple counter-argument that illustrates what nonsense their position is, very easily.

Germans live in full knowledge of the atrocities committed by their nation in the 1930's and 40's and yet, not a single Nazi era statue or monument remains standing. In Germany, they teach their history in schools and they remember it vividly and in the proper context. This is how history is taught and learned.
This is REAL education.

Because statues have an inherent context, they don't simply commemorate, they revere. They honour. And it's a legitimate function of the evolution society that from time to time we decide that there are certain things revered and honoured by our ancestors that we don't want to revere or honour any more.

This is why the accusation being levelled against the protesters, that we're judging a man who lived 300 years ago by modern ethical standards of which he could never have conceived, let alone lived up to, is mistaken.

Dumping Colston in the river isn't retroactively condemning him for deeds committed centuries ago, it's deciding that these deeds are not worthy of honour and respect TODAY.

Meanwhile, debate has now begun as to which eminent Bristolian should now occupy the plinth left vacant by Colston's removal. I suggest Paul Stephenson. Bristol's own Rosa Parks. He organised a bus boycott in 1963 because the local transport company had a policy of hiring only white drivers. Which was perfectly legal at that time. Stephenson's action contributed greatly to Parliament passing the 1965 Race Relations Act.

I think BLM would consider Stephenson occupying Colston's former place most acceptable.
Jennifer1984 On July 03, 2020
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 19:21:27
Taking down statues. It's nothing new.

bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#3New Post! Jun 20, 2020 @ 09:51:53
We shall unwrite all human histories of heathen origin...
call to destruction...


darkman666 On about 7 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#4New Post! Jun 21, 2020 @ 16:27:38
most fans agree that " time enough at last " is the best twilight zone episodes of all time.

" death-head revisited " to me of the second best of all time.

death-heads revisited

this topic remind of something difference in ww2, not statues to remove the past, like slavery. but something important why need the south and other parts of usa to keep the statues up.

think about this dealing with topic, something to remind of us about our past.

this last few minutes of end of the episode:

Lutze is found and taken to a mental institution, since he continues to experience and react to his illusionary sufferings. His finders wonder how a man who was perfectly calm two hours before could have gone insane. The doctor looks around and asks, "Dachau. Why does it still stand? Why do we keep it standing?"


this haunting closing narration at the end, that rod serling wrote and spoke. is something, we need thing about, even today.

There is an answer to the doctor's question. All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes – all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and to remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth.
Jennifer1984 On July 03, 2020
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Jun 21, 2020 @ 21:24:51
@darkman666 Said

most fans agree that " time enough at last " is the best twilight zone episodes of all time.

" death-head revisited " to me of the second best of all time.

death-heads revisited

this topic remind of something difference in ww2, not statues to remove the past, like slavery. but something important why need the south and other parts of usa to keep the statues up.

think about this dealing with topic, something to remind of us about our past.

this last few minutes of end of the episode:

Lutze is found and taken to a mental institution, since he continues to experience and react to his illusionary sufferings. His finders wonder how a man who was perfectly calm two hours before could have gone insane. The doctor looks around and asks, "Dachau. Why does it still stand? Why do we keep it standing?"


this haunting closing narration at the end, that rod serling wrote and spoke. is something, we need thing about, even today.

There is an answer to the doctor's question. All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes – all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and to remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth.


I see where you're coming from.

However, keeping the camps standing is not the same as a statue.

For a start, a statue is not the actual person, it is a stylised version of the person. It stands on a plinth for a reason... so we can look up to it. There is a psychology to that. They are intended to be looked up to and revered... as we would look heavenwards towards where we believe God to be.

Statues usually present the figure in either a state of grandeur or as a warrior astride a horse, sword held aloft. Again,a figure to be looked up to. It is meant to inspire awe. "Wow, what a great soldier he must have been."

It's called "Hoof Position Symbolism". In the US and UK, if the horse is rearing (both front legs in the air), the rider died in battle; one front leg up means the rider was wounded in battle; and if all four hooves are on the ground, the rider died outside battle.

But this is open to manipulation. For example, Richard the Lionheart's statue in London shows the rider mounted, but in truth, he died in bed, 11 days after being wounded by a crossbow bolt during a siege. The statue tells a lie.

There are at least nine instances where the rule does not hold for Gettysburg equestrian statues. One such statue was erected in 1998 in Gettysburg National Military Park, of James Longstreet, who is featured on his horse with one foot raised, even though Longstreet was not wounded in that battle.

This is all part of the fallacy that statues represent history. They don't. They represent whatever the person sculpting it (usually on behalf of somebody else) wants it to say.

Getting on to the death camps.

These are not memorials erected by humans to glorify individuals. These are historical sites where dreadful deeds took place. When one visits them, they are seeing the actual place where those deeds happened. They have not been erected after the event, they have been left standing as memorials to man's inhumanity to man, not to glorify an individual.

They have been left standing as a sobering warning to future generations not to repeat the mistakes of history and allow such people who did these things, to ever rise again.

When it comes to statues and genuine historic sites, I think we need to draw such distinctions.
dookie On about 4 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#6New Post! Jun 22, 2020 @ 10:41:24
Well there is some thoughtful words here about statue bashing and toppling. After a recent escape from UK Tabloid Comments Sections, full of toxic accusations of what at a stretch could be called "opinions", revolving around slogans and soundbites concerning the "loony left" or the "rabid right", nice to find this.

Anyway, in a sense we are all monuments to the past. Maybe most of us need toppling, if not thrown into the river. Will we be merciful or judgemental? Towards ourselves and towards others?

I recently read a tweet quoted on a friend's Facebook Page, which asked:- "Do you ever wonder what you would have done during the rise of Fascism and the attacks upon Democracy in the 1930s? " with the answer:- "it's what you are doing now. "

Yes indeed. I try not to come to conclusions. Keep safe.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#7New Post! Jun 22, 2020 @ 13:01:22
@dookie Said

Well there is some thoughtful words here about statue bashing and toppling. After a recent escape from UK Tabloid Comments Sections, full of toxic accusations of what at a stretch could be called "opinions", revolving around slogans and soundbites concerning the "loony left" or the "rabid right", nice to find this.

Anyway, in a sense we are all monuments to the past. Maybe most of us need toppling, if not thrown into the river. Will we be merciful or judgemental? Towards ourselves and towards others?

I recently read a tweet quoted on a friend's Facebook Page, which asked:- "Do you ever wonder what you would have done during the rise of Fascism and the attacks upon Democracy in the 1930s? " with the answer:- "it's what you are doing now. "

Yes indeed. I try not to come to conclusions. Keep safe.


I have often pondered over the years how something like Nazi Germany could have happened. Now, I no longer have to ask as I see it play out before my eyes.

Nazis claimed that one race had privilege and they called for "social justice."

They used violence against their political opponents.

They wanted free speech banned.

They used violence to stop people from speaking on university campuses, and they burned books (whereas now they just shut down your social media platforms, shadowban 'wrongthink' and deplatform you).

And they justified it all by vilifying their opponents as morally inferior.

In other words, they did then what is being done now.

I doubt we can turn this ship around. That Tweet was spot on, sadly. We either stand on the side of freedom and democracy or we don't. 'My side' looks like it is going to lose and the free world is going to die. It is a pity, but, such is the way of things. Humans are not good at freedom.

Ps, it is good to see you again, even though I realise you dislike my view of the world. You are one of the old guard here. I hope you're doing well
dookie On about 4 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#8New Post! Jun 22, 2020 @ 15:05:30
Bob, from my perspective there are no sides. I don't look upon myself as being on the side of the angels, standing up for this, that or anything else.

Looking back we have the great gift of hindsight. We now know the winners and the losers. But what was "right" or "wrong" then? When Hitler gave his latest speech for his international audience was it, to those who listened, a threat to democracy? A threat to world peace? Revisionist historians now quote his words from such speeches and see them as supporting freedom and democracy! Now we have the various Diaries, especially those of Goebbels, and we can read exactly what Hitler said to his close associates when away from the rostrum. I could go on and bore the life out of you - I'm very well versed on German life between the wars.

Try finding the truth of anything these days, the "Information Age"! Take your pick from various media, newspapers, web-sites and tweets and whatnot. Even the main "fact-checking" sites have their critics - and their bias!

I'm tired Bob. I'm 71 now. I'm not a cynic. Which may seem strange having said what I have.

But all the best mate.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#9New Post! Jun 22, 2020 @ 23:07:08
@dookie Said

Bob, from my perspective there are no sides. I don't look upon myself as being on the side of the angels, standing up for this, that or anything else.



I get that. The problem is that there are those who claim everything is political. So it is. That means you take a side whether you believe them or not. They absolutely leave us no choice. Yes, we can accept that these people are vile little authoritarians who fail at understanding themselves, humanity in general, and history in particular, and that is absolutely true, but we still take a side. We are for or against them. They do not give you a choice. They make the individual and every choice of the individual, political.

Me? I agree with you. I do not care what side someone is on. I do not care about whether you are what you are or you pretend to be something else. I want you, me and everyone else to be free, and to allow others to have their freedom.

By supporting freedom I have been forced to take a side.

If you do not support freedom you also take a side. That is the way of these things.

It is sad and it is almost guaranteed to end very badly for a lot of people, and it is pointless and unnecessary and based on a lot of lies, but, such is life, as we say here.
mrmhead On about 13 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#10New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 00:02:31
chaski On about 6 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#11New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 00:51:03
It's just a chicken farm fire ma'am.... keep on mov'n


But honestly, the only thing that is happening is that the Age of the USA is passing on... times change...

The rest of the world will live on and prosper without our leadership (or intervention if you prefer that word).

Granted China will... and already is becoming the geo-political/economic power of the Pacific Rim.

But no worries, the almighty dollar and the english language will remain the currency of the world and language of the internet for some time to come.

Europe will move to sustainable energy... which will deflate the fossil fuel economy based influence of the M.E.

With any luck at all, over the next 80 years or so "we" will all begin to move away from the Abrahamic religions.

The "western" culture that will die (eventually) and be replaced is nothing more than the bulls*** pseudo-freedom of Imperialism and pseudo-capitalism, both of which feed the rich, disenfranchise the poor, and ride on the back of the middle class...while spewing forth divisive "you've got to pick a side" bulls***.

....and in a 100 thousand years (most likely much less... much much less) the human species will die off by a combination of natural and man made disasters... the invisible mythical gods and messiahs of man will never materialize.

The earth will survive... new life will fill all of the gaps...


It's just a chicken farm fire ma'am.... keep on mov'n



Or the God of Abraham will quit f***ing around in which case Christians should stop acting like a bunch of piss-ant crybaby sissies and live life knowing/believing their god is real and loves them...

Of course none of that has anything to do with Statues....

I for one cry for Ozymandias on a regular basis.






PS
The repeated references and comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany are at best proof that whoever is making those sorts of references and comparisons is an idiot that doesn't know one one hundredth of the history that they want to pretend like they know. Complete idiocy.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#12New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 05:19:42
@chaski Said

The repeated references and comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany are at best proof that whoever is making those sorts of references and comparisons is an idiot that doesn't know one one hundredth of the history that they want to pretend like they know. Complete idiocy.



I agree. However I love the irony of being called a Nazi and fascist for wanting everyone to be free by someone whose fellow ideologues believe Nazi ideas (social justice, racial privilege), and use Nazi/fascist tactics (violence against political opponents to end their freedom).

You have known me long enough by now to know I love irony and humour and will point it out regularly.
Jennifer1984 On July 03, 2020
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#13New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 06:50:13
@dookie Said

Well there is some thoughtful words here about statue bashing and toppling. After a recent escape from UK Tabloid Comments Sections, full of toxic accusations of what at a stretch could be called "opinions", revolving around slogans and soundbites concerning the "loony left" or the "rabid right", nice to find this.

Anyway, in a sense we are all monuments to the past. Maybe most of us need toppling, if not thrown into the river. Will we be merciful or judgemental? Towards ourselves and towards others?

I recently read a tweet quoted on a friend's Facebook Page, which asked:- "Do you ever wonder what you would have done during the rise of Fascism and the attacks upon Democracy in the 1930s? " with the answer:- "it's what you are doing now. "

Yes indeed. I try not to come to conclusions. Keep safe.



An interesting take on things, though somewhat flawed, I think, when you conflate statues with people. We may well be monuments to our own past inasmuch as we all carry our forebears genes. I can't control my past as a living, breathing human being, but I do have a determinable future that can be shaped in a shifting environment. I can also decide what to do with an inanimate object that has only one purpose, whether it be to represent or mis-represent the past. The statue can never change. It can never adjust to attitudes or events. It can be only ever be one thing. It can only make one statement.

It is also ours to do with as we will and its disposal will not physically or material cause harm to anybody.

The loss of the statue of Edward Colston has not affected anybody in the same way that, say, the deaths of 44'000 people in Britain from Coronvirus has affected the lives of their loved ones, or the hurt and suffering caused to millions of Britons by the extremism of a few who believe that they are racially superior.

Bob gets upset about his precious symbols because he sees monuments to his racism being discarded and feels his cause being lessened. He and his like have been rumbled. It's not difficult to see how he'd object to that.

The hard-right are very quick to claim that the left (whatever that is) are the real fascists. Claim and counter claim. I say potayto, and you say potarto.

The hard right calling BLM protesters fascists is so laughable it's hardly worthy of reply.

Nice to see a new face on here though. I've been a regular for more than ten years now and don't remember seeing you around before, so I extend you a welcome to our little family. I look forward to reading more of your comments.

Regards
dookie On about 4 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#14New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 07:04:52
Hi Jennifer, yes, I've been away for a few years, but before my last appearance I was here as "Tariki". I like name changes. Some are more pretentious than others.

I'm happy to be "flawed" in whatever way.... "its how the light gets in" as Leonard Cohen sings.

More than our "genes" are involved as far as our being monuments to the past. Conflating statues with people? Maybe!

Nice to meet you. I'll probably be off again pretty soon - I love the quiet life.
dookie On about 4 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#15New Post! Jun 23, 2020 @ 08:02:05
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I get that



I don't get much myself these days. The way I read it, circumstances are continually bringing forth our responses, moment by moment. Taking sides?

Well this might be an "eastern response"! "What are the teachings of a whole lifetime?" The world famous Zen Master Yun-Men answered:- "An appropriate statement." I think Yun-Men was coming from the "enlightened" perspective which is certainly not my own, but I still see no point in adding slogans, soundbites and judgements to whatever my "statement" is. A blow for freedom? Putting down the facsists? Give me a break.
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