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Leon On June 21, 2020




San Diego, California
#1New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 04:24:27
I'm not saying I would ever do otherwise if a parent, as it may be impossible to, but I often wonder...

...how much we really do condition kids in things that are so a part of us that we mistake them as human nature.

Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?

The desire to own property
The instinct of aggression when threatened
The need of material things for enjoyment
The desire for justice after being wronged
The need of recognition for esteem

Discuss...
Tailkinker On May 09, 2020
WorldOfDarknessQueen





My Backpack, Michigan
#2New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 04:42:20
@Leon Said

I'm not saying I would ever do otherwise if a parent, as it may be impossible to, but I often wonder...

...how much we really do condition kids in things that are so a part of us that we mistake them as human nature.

Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?

The desire to own property
The instinct of aggression when threatened
The need for things for enjoyment
The desire for justice after being wronged
The need of recognition for esteem

Discuss...


IDK that everyone teaches these things to their kids.

The Desire To Own Property and The Need For Things For Enjoyment:
https://nathandaywilson.blogspot.com/2009/06/todays-students-are-more-globally-aware.html

Doesn't reading that make you proud of our kids!

The Instinct For Aggression:
https://www.nwf.org/Get-Outside/Be-Out-There/Why-Be-Out-There.aspx

We just need to get them outside to help them be less agressive

As for the desire for justice when they are wronged. I think that a love for justice and fairness is a good thing. As for the need for recognition? IDK, I think my children are more humble than I was at their age. But than again I am raising them very differently from how I was raised.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#3New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 04:42:58
I believe they are human nature, some perhaps on different tiers than others.

For me, and I say this detatched from my role as a father to three children, the litmus is to imagine a person who didn't have these things instilled in them.

The first one is sort of on the line for me...is the desire to own property something inherent to humans or is it more social conditioning that we accept (however unwittingly) in order to participate in a society? There are societies in the world that don't include the ownership of personal property to the degree that most western civilizations do, but there is still an understanding of "property" in the sense that certain things are regarded as belonging to a group or community.

The instinct of agression? While it's more common in some than in others, I believe it to be innate that a human will sometimes revert to fight rather than flight. There are cases when of course an overly aggressive individual has been conditioned to be that way, either by a family environment or community, but I believe most people have something of a balance between being an agressor when threatened or taking flight based on an assessment of the threat. Same as other mammals, really.

The need for things for enjoyment? Well...taking into account my litmus...imagine a child raised without any enjoyment in its life. It wouldn't really be a psychologically complete person. Enjoyment is necessary for mental health, and think that also ties into the last thing on the list...that recognition is a necessity for self esteem. If I constantly complete tasks to the best of my ability and receive no recognition for them, I am going to eventually learn that I am unimportant and that my efforts are not needed by anyone else.

The desire for justice I feel is an evolved trait that is related to the fact that we are social animals. The desire for justice is in essence a desire for the protection of social structure.
Leon On June 21, 2020




San Diego, California
#4New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 04:55:30
@Tailkinker Said

IDK that everyone teaches these things to their kids.

The Desire To Own Property and The Need For Things For Enjoyment:
https://nathandaywilson.blogspot.com/2009/06/todays-students-are-more-globally-aware.html

Doesn't reading that make you proud of our kids!

The Instinct For Aggression:
https://www.nwf.org/Get-Outside/Be-Out-There/Why-Be-Out-There.aspx

We just need to get them outside to help them be less agressive

As for the desire for justice when they are wronged. I think that a love for justice and fairness is a good thing. As for the need for recognition? IDK, I think my children are more humble than I was at their age. But than again I am raising them very differently from how I was raised.


Thanks for the links. Yes, the desire to own property has been inherent to American life for as long as the country has been in existence, even addressed in the Declaration of Independence. But I often wonder if this desire is really as inherent as John Locke implied, as we see many countries where this isn't as valued and people are quite content.

The playfulness vs. aggression thing is interesting, and something I do question, as we certainly were more outside-playing as a nation a half a century ago, yet still saw plenty of violence in and abroad.

I hear you about justice and the love of it, and do agree. Justice certainly has its place. But I wonder how accepting we would be of life not being fair sometimes and willing to forgive if we weren't conditioned to always "tell on the teacher or tell on mommy" on every inconsequential thing.
Leon On June 21, 2020




San Diego, California
#5New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 04:59:19
@Eaglebauer Said

I believe they are human nature, some perhaps on different tiers than others.

For me, and I say this detatched from my role as a father to three children, the litmus is to imagine a person who didn't have these things instilled in them.

The first one is sort of on the line for me...is the desire to own property something inherent to humans or is it more social conditioning that we accept (however unwittingly) in order to participate in a society? There are societies in the world that don't include the ownership of personal property to the degree that most western civilizations do, but there is still an understanding of "property" in the sense that certain things are regarded as belonging to a group or community.

The instinct of agression? While it's more common in some than in others, I believe it to be innate that a human will sometimes revert to fight rather than flight. There are cases when of course an overly aggressive individual has been conditioned to be that way, either by a family environment or community, but I believe most people have something of a balance between being an agressor when threatened or taking flight based on an assessment of the threat. Same as other mammals, really.

The need for things for enjoyment? Well...taking into account my litmus...imagine a child raised without any enjoyment in its life. It wouldn't really be a psychologically complete person. Enjoyment is necessary for mental health, and think that also ties into the last thing on the list...that recognition is a necessity for self esteem. If I constantly complete tasks to the best of my ability and receive no recognition for them, I am going to eventually learn that I am unimportant and that my efforts are not needed by anyone else.

The desire for justice I feel is an evolved trait that is related to the fact that we are social animals. The desire for justice is in essence a desire for the protection of social structure.


Hmm, well I was more addressing the need to own property individually as opposed to community ownership. How much of that do you think is conditioned? I mean, at the very least, certainly a community sense of ownership is needed for survival. Such as land to farm, ways to get places, etc. But do we all need to each have our own house, own car, own toys, etc? We certainly have a mindset that we do now.

And, by "things" I meant material things (I corrected it in the OP). I certainly wasn't questioning the need for enjoyment itself. But how much have we conditioned ourselves to need tangible things for this enjoyment? What would happen if we didn't rely on toys to keep children happy?

Very good point on how mammals are aggressive as well, so perhaps that aspect is indeed human nature rather than a conditioning.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#6New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 05:07:27
@Leon Said

I'm not saying I would ever do otherwise if a parent, as it may be impossible to, but I often wonder...

...how much we really do condition kids in things that are so a part of us that we mistake them as human nature.

Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?

The desire to own property
The instinct of aggression when threatened
The need of material things for enjoyment
The desire for justice after being wronged
The need of recognition for esteem

Discuss...


Aggression when threatened can be a good thing. Better that than cowering, crying, or being bullied or walked over.

I personally would not teach, and did not teach, that possessions are important - to me, people are important, not things (although, I also admit my hypocrisy here as I would be crushed if someone stole my geetars).

On teaching the desire for justice - for me personally, I tried to teach that we are all screw ups as humans, and it is better to try and empathise with others... one of my mottoes is that, in effect, we can't ask others for perfection when we are not perfect.

In regards to building esteem: Hopefully as a parent you give your children a sense of esteem based on who they are, not what they do.



that's my ideal anyway, although I am fairly certain I failed on all counts...
chisa96 On December 29, 2014
Supreme Goddess





Out in Nature, Wisconsin
#7New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 05:07:28
How can we possible not condition children? That's more or less what parents do, they pass on the life and way of thinking that they know.

Whatever our values, we would condition our children simply by believing in them ourselves, by living by them.

None of them that you listed are greatly unnatural either though.
Leon On June 21, 2020




San Diego, California
#8New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 05:11:32
@chisa96 Said

How can we possible not condition children? That's more or less what parents do, they pass on the life and way of thinking that they know.

Whatever our values, we would condition our children simply by believing in them ourselves, by living by them.


Agreed, as it would be nearly impossible to try and rid ourselves of such things when raising kids, especially in the context of being surrounded by it outside the home anyways. The question was more hypothetical than realistic.
Tailkinker On May 09, 2020
WorldOfDarknessQueen





My Backpack, Michigan
#9New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 05:14:24
@Leon Said

Thanks for the links. Yes, the desire to own property has been inherent to American life for as long as the country has been in existence, even addressed in the Declaration of Independence. But I often wonder if this desire is really as inherent as John Locke implied, as we see many countries where this isn't as valued and people are quite content.


I think what young people these days are beginning to see is that we all can own property, but that in order to truly enjoy it we need to keep in in perspective. I notice that a lot of people my age (early thirties) are choosing lower paying jobs that offer more home time with family, or are making choices about where to live or what to drive with "how does that affect my family time" or "how will that affect the environment"

I think it is good to own property, to be responsible for your own patch of earth, but now instead of asking "How much can I get the bank to lend me" People are asking "whats the least amount of money I can spend to get the house/car that I need?"

Same with toys for their kids, vacations, furniture. Just all kinds of financial situations. I know that for me, if I am going to buy, say a piece of furniture, than I am going to look for it in all the resale shops first. That's not because I can't buy new, its because used is more environmentally respectful. Second, most resale shops are funding a positive cause. And third I wont buy on credit unless absolutely necessary.

My kids learn to spend from me, and consequently they are starting to be more excited about what a bargain they can find than about whether something is "in"

@Leon Said
The playfulness vs. aggression thing is interesting, and something I do question, as we certainly were more outside-playing as a nation a half a century ago, yet still saw plenty of violence in and abroad.


My ex-husband got all huffy with me one day and said he couldn't stand what a bunch of peacenik hippies I was turning the kids into. I said, "thanks"

We just have to raise one good little peacenik at a time

@Leon Said

I hear you about justice and the love of it, and do agree. Justice certainly has its place. But I wonder how accepting we would be of life not being fair sometimes and willing to forgive if we weren't conditioned to always "tell on the teacher or tell on mommy" on every inconsequential thing.


I hate tattletales

When my kiddos do it it drives me up the wall
chisa96 On December 29, 2014
Supreme Goddess





Out in Nature, Wisconsin
#10New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:31:38
@Leon Said

The question was more hypothetical than realistic.



And my answer is yes, we condition these things in our kids, but many of them might manifest in some form naturally even if they grew up apart from the world entirely.

I mean, shelter, esteem (though that might have been too far damaged by being isolated for them to seek from others), and the instinct to defend ourselves, are pretty basic needs.
xLETHAL_VIXENx On January 22, 2015
Logical Alien





Your pants, United States (gen
#11New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:41:55
@Leon Said

I'm not saying I would ever do otherwise if a parent, as it may be impossible to, but I often wonder...

...how much we really do condition kids in things that are so a part of us that we mistake them as human nature.

Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?

The desire to own property
The instinct of aggression when threatened
The need of material things for enjoyment
The desire for justice after being wronged
The need of recognition for esteem

Discuss...


The desire to own property is human nature, as primitive humans, we constantly fought and killed for territory.

The instinct of aggression is also human nature, although now we can control and teach when it's not appropriate.

Then need for material things, again human nature.

The desire for justice, hence why we were such vile creatures in our beginning, we killed plenty of times for justice.

Again, it's human nature to have the need of recognition for esteem.




Okay, you've listed everything that IS human nature, regardless of the age. These are not just modern age issues we deal with.
hoppy On August 27, 2013




,
#12New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:42:03
I really wish modern day kids would be made to grow up without all the crap they have these days. Cell phones, I-pods, computers and even TV. Until a few years ago, my computer was a pencil and my brain. When I went to school, they taught us how to use both.
If all elecronics suddenly ceased to function, I could still do just fine. Just don't be caught in a grocery store with a cart full of grub should that happen. No one but the few older employees would know how to handle the problem.
sister_of_mercy On March 11, 2015




London, United Kingdom
#13New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:43:09
@Leon Said

I'm not saying I would ever do otherwise if a parent, as it may be impossible to, but I often wonder...

...how much we really do condition kids in things that are so a part of us that we mistake them as human nature.

Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?

The desire to own property
The instinct of aggression when threatened
The need of material things for enjoyment
The desire for justice after being wronged
The need of recognition for esteem

Discuss...


I think some of it is human nature. We all want to be recognised for our efforts and a lot of us will respond to stressors with aggression.

I think perhaps there's an element of a cultural conditioning there too, living in a capitalist country with a history of fighting for things might have induced stronger character traits like the desire to own your own property that might not be prevalent in other countries.
alk1975 On August 11, 2016




Jackson, Missouri
#14New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 14:36:55
@Leon Said


Do we condition our offspring or are these things really human nature?
What an interesting topic. Right up my alley. Thanks for posting.

@Leon Said
The desire to own property
I think this is primarily socialized into us. Native American's didn't feel the need. This has been socialized into our culture so heavily that it is difficult for some people to imagine it could be different.
@Leon Said
The instinct of aggression when threatened
I think this goes to the fight or flight response, but kids need to be and can be taught how to address emotional/social threats differently. And, giving them appropriate experiences with social interactions reduces that sense of being threatened, teaches them how to interact with others in a manner that doesn't trigger aggressive behavior from others, etc.
@Leon Said
The need of material things for enjoyment
Socialized. goes to the owning property thing. Kids will play given the opportunity to play, but when the have only been given opportunities to play with things and not to use their imaginations, they fail to realize their ability to use their imaginations. I think the article on the outdoors fits great here, and I do wish more kids would go outside more. I have to practically force my 13yo outside these days. He prefers video games, but he used to love being outdoors. My 8yo still does. I'm also probably more on the free range side of parenting than not too. I believe kids learn from being on their own and will more successfully understand how to navigate the world if they have been doing it increasing increments since they were little.
@Leon Said
The desire for justice after being wronged
I tend to see this as being more inborn, but that they can be taught to understand other viewpoints, empathize, and forgive. Those are the things that take teaching. Perhaps we are failing to teach our children these things.
@Leon Said
The need of recognition for esteem


I'm with Maslow on this. I think that esteem of self and esteem of others is a basic need and helps children to understand what their strengths and weaknesses are so that they can better play to their strengths and increase success.
offbeat On about 8 hours ago




london, United Kingdom
#15New Post! Apr 16, 2012 @ 14:50:00
all those things you mention leon .. may be hard wired to some degree in human nature .... but materialism , in my opinion , is way out of control .... i wouldn't mind betting that there was more contentment in america in the late 40's to early 50's ... when family was at the heart of the community ... and before the greed for ever more money and possesions became a national obsession ..
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