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Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#46New Post! Nov 17, 2020 @ 06:36:18
Thanks for all those comments / replies to my question.

I can see the points you're making and if it really does come down to unfettered capitalism gone rampant, then please, keep it over there. We don't want it here.

If it's ideology, then somebody please inform those numpties that a healthy democracy need never fear communism. That just makes your need to repair the damage done by Trump all the more urgent.

If it's wilful ignorance then I suppose there isn't a great deal that can be done about that except education. But hey.... you've got a functional, universal education system, so nobody NEEDS to be dumb. That has to be a matter of choice.

Choosing to be dumb. Sheesh....

Oh well.... we've got no room to criticise. We voted for Brexit.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#47New Post! Nov 17, 2020 @ 18:04:13
but the education system is run/funded by the government in some way so its obviously part of the socialist conspiracy.

they wont learn. education = indoctrination to socialism


it extremism that is the problem
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#48New Post! Nov 17, 2020 @ 18:46:21
@Jennifer1984 Said

Thanks for all those comments / replies to my question.

I can see the points you're making and if it really does come down to unfettered capitalism gone rampant, then please, keep it over there. We don't want it here.

If it's ideology, then somebody please inform those numpties that a healthy democracy need never fear communism. That just makes your need to repair the damage done by Trump all the more urgent.

If it's wilful ignorance then I suppose there isn't a great deal that can be done about that except education. But hey.... you've got a functional, universal education system, so nobody NEEDS to be dumb. That has to be a matter of choice.

Choosing to be dumb. Sheesh....

Oh well.... we've got no room to criticise. We voted for Brexit.


The Koch-brothers corporate propaganda has taught us that anything like universal healthcare is akin to socialism (not true), and that socialism should be thought of as undemocratic and totalitarian (also not true), both of which the American public mindlessly sucks up. This is where the lack of education comes in. DNC has done a horrible job of communicating to us that there is a huge difference between Democratic Socialism as found in Scandinavia (which is what Sanders and Warren vouch for) and the true communist socialism as previously found in the USSR.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#49New Post! Nov 17, 2020 @ 19:05:06
@Leon Said

The Koch-brothers corporate propaganda has taught us that anything like universal healthcare is akin to socialism (not true), and that socialism should be thought of as undemocratic and totalitarian (also not true), both of which the American public mindlessly sucks up. This is where the lack of education comes in. DNC has done a horrible job of communicating to us that there is a huge difference between Democratic Socialism as found in Scandinavia (which is what Sanders and Warren vouch for) and the true communist socialism as previously found in the USSR.



But the USSR wasn't "true" Communist socialism.

The Soviet Union pitted the "state capitalism" of the USSR against the private capitalism of the West. The Soviets didn't establish communism. They thought about it, but never did it.

Under a true communist system as envisaged by Marx and Engels, the workers would control all aspects of production and decide how any surpluses are used. But in the wake of the 1917 revolution, the Bolsheviks imposed a layer of state managers to operate industry in the name of the people. That system was a sort of "state capitalism," and it ceded decisions about the use of profits to government officials.

What Americans have bucked against is the rule of monolithic state institutions and monsters like Stalin and I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting that.... but in doing so they've taken themselves off to the other extreme and the end result of that has been the mis-rule of a certifiable nutjob named Trump for four years and the rise of extremist groups like white supremacists.

A moderate, centreist system that maintains a balance between the needs of a responsible and properly regulated industry that produces wealth, and the needs of the people, is the system that seems to produce the happiest and best provided for populaces.


Government systems work something like this:

Unfettered Capitalism: A very small number of people become obscenely rich but the majority live in poverty

Soviet style Communism: Only the Party Hierarchy get rich. Everybody else lives in poverty.

Democratic, moderate Socialism: Anybody CAN get rich. Nobody needs to live in poverty.


That's the way I see it.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#50New Post! Nov 17, 2020 @ 19:21:54
@Jennifer1984 Said

But the USSR wasn't "true" Communist socialism.

The Soviet Union pitted the "state capitalism" of the USSR against the private capitalism of the West. The Soviets didn't establish communism. They thought about it, but never did it.

Under a true communist system as envisaged by Marx and Engels, the workers would control all aspects of production and decide how any surpluses are used. But in the wake of the 1917 revolution, the Bolsheviks imposed a layer of state managers to operate industry in the name of the people. That system was a sort of "state capitalism," and it ceded decisions about the use of profits to government officials.

What Americans have bucked against is the rule of monolithic state institutions and monsters like Stalin and I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting that.... but in doing so they've taken themselves off to the other extreme and the end result of that has been the mis-rule of a certifiable nutjob named Trump for four years and the rise of extremist groups like white supremacists.

A moderate, centreist system that maintains a balance between the needs of a responsible and properly regulated industry that produces wealth, and the needs of the people, is the system that seems to produce the happiest and best provided for populaces.


Government systems work something like this:

Unfettered Capitalism: A very small number of people become obscenely rich but the majority live in poverty

Soviet style Communism: Only the Party Hierarchy get rich. Everybody else lives in poverty.

Democratic, moderate Socialism: Anybody CAN get rich. Nobody needs to live in poverty.


That's the way I see it.


Yes, when I say true communist socialism, I am really referring to state run control of the means of production, distribution and exchange - or socialist state as Marx put it, which is what the USSR was stuck in. The Marxist theory that this transition period of state control eventually cease into what you are describing was the ideological goal, although it is questionable if that was truly the goal in the USSR post-Lenin.

My main point though is that it was much more socialist than what we see in Scandinavia or Western Europe. Those are largely capitalist systems, and democratic at that. They just have more regulation and safety net programs than we do.
4d4m On December 23, 2022




4dforum.org,
#51New Post! Nov 19, 2020 @ 17:47:13
Karl Marx
Freidrich Engels

Communism and socialism are systems of complete economic and social control based on a false idealism. Do you think Stalin stood in line for cheese and his vodka ration? Marxism was a bad idea in 1853, it's a worse idea now. It's a "philosophy" that has caused more death and suffering in the last 200 years than any before it.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#52New Post! Nov 19, 2020 @ 18:53:26
@4d4m Said

Karl Marx
Freidrich Engels

Communism and socialism are systems of complete economic and social control based on a false idealism. Do you think Stalin stood in line for cheese and his vodka ration? Marxism was a bad idea in 1853, it's a worse idea now. It's a "philosophy" that has caused more death and suffering in the last 200 years than any before it.


Yes, Sanders and Warren vouch for capitalism. It’s the safety net measures and taxation reforms of the rich that people are using to confuse them as socialist, because those are viewed as a means for wealth redistribution, the ultimate goal of socialism.
4d4m On December 23, 2022




4dforum.org,
#53New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 03:43:05
The ultimate goal of socialism (and communism) is to get people to do as much as possible for as little as possible. This is accomplished through a false morality "give what you can and take what you need." Sounds good on paper.

The truth is if our country, or our world, became socialist the same people ruling it now will rule it then. They won't make Greta Thornburgh the president. They will still run rampant through the environment. They will still poison your food. They will still try to limit your lifetimes to when you are productive and no longer. They will still work you as hard as they can and send your kids off to die in their scripted wars. They will strip you of any means to fight back and use you like cattle. You will "take what you need." or what they determine you need. They will still have yachts, private jets. and luxury cars.

They will teach your kids what they want them to know. Your history will be erased so that they won't even know the difference. You will get your news from one state owned newspaper, edited by the CIA.

You won't go to church or yoga class. You won't go to temple or the mosque. You will not study Tai Chi or read esoteric teachings. You will not use Tarot or study astrology.

When they poison your river you won't be able to sue because the company will be owned by the government. This will also be true if you lose your job for some petty crap. You will not start a company manufacturing hemp clothing or making organic coffee. You won't get to copyright your writings or get a patent on your invention, the state will own your mind.

You won't get to choose not to buy a product from a company whose suppliers use child labor or are not green. Hell, you won't even know if they are.

Get out of Lala Land
chaski On about 16 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#54New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 05:27:31
@4d4m Said

The ultimate goal of socialism (and communism) is to get people to do as much as possible for as little as possible. This is accomplished through a false morality "give what you can and take what you need." Sounds good on paper.

The truth is if our country, or our world, became socialist the same people ruling it now will rule it then. They won't make Greta Thornburgh the president. They will still run rampant through the environment. They will still poison your food. They will still try to limit your lifetimes to when you are productive and no longer. They will still work you as hard as they can and send your kids off to die in their scripted wars. They will strip you of any means to fight back and use you like cattle. You will "take what you need." or what they determine you need. They will still have yachts, private jets. and luxury cars.

They will teach your kids what they want them to know. Your history will be erased so that they won't even know the difference. You will get your news from one state owned newspaper, edited by the CIA.

You won't go to church or yoga class. You won't go to temple or the mosque. You will not study Tai Chi or read esoteric teachings. You will not use Tarot or study astrology.

When they poison your river you won't be able to sue because the company will be owned by the government. This will also be true if you lose your job for some petty crap. You will not start a company manufacturing hemp clothing or making organic coffee. You won't get to copyright your writings or get a patent on your invention, the state will own your mind.

You won't get to choose not to buy a product from a company whose suppliers use child labor or are not green. Hell, you won't even know if they are.

Get out of Lala Land



What's your point?
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#55New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 08:58:22
@chaski Said

What's your point?



I think the idea is that you choose any word ending in "ism" (maybe "ology" or even "ainity" will do) then you drape across it all things you consider adverse, reprehensible, and not able to be equated with one's own predilections and prejudices and moral rectitude. Having disassociated yourself from all such adverse things you then feel justified in supporting the status quo.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#56New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 14:42:14
@4d4m Said

The ultimate goal of socialism (and communism) is to get people to do as much as possible for as little as possible. This is accomplished through a false morality "give what you can and take what you need." Sounds good on paper.

The truth is if our country, or our world, became socialist the same people ruling it now will rule it then. They won't make Greta Thornburgh the president. They will still run rampant through the environment. They will still poison your food. They will still try to limit your lifetimes to when you are productive and no longer. They will still work you as hard as they can and send your kids off to die in their scripted wars. They will strip you of any means to fight back and use you like cattle. You will "take what you need." or what they determine you need. They will still have yachts, private jets. and luxury cars.

They will teach your kids what they want them to know. Your history will be erased so that they won't even know the difference. You will get your news from one state owned newspaper, edited by the CIA.

You won't go to church or yoga class. You won't go to temple or the mosque. You will not study Tai Chi or read esoteric teachings. You will not use Tarot or study astrology.

When they poison your river you won't be able to sue because the company will be owned by the government. This will also be true if you lose your job for some petty crap. You will not start a company manufacturing hemp clothing or making organic coffee. You won't get to copyright your writings or get a patent on your invention, the state will own your mind.

You won't get to choose not to buy a product from a company whose suppliers use child labor or are not green. Hell, you won't even know if they are.

Get out of Lala Land


Capitalism isn't too different.
Every time there is some crisis or pressure on the economy, technology and methods manage to allow companies to do more with less, slowly displacing the worker.
10,000 get laid off, but in recovery maybe only 5,000 return.

"Re-train"/re-career may work for some, but not all.

Capitalism and Free Market only gives the illusion that Everyman can rise up to the level of the elites. It takes a number of circumstances and opportunities to make a step up in class. And that most frequently occurs for those that rub shoulders (or brown-nose) with the elites.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#57New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 15:58:56
@mrmhead Said

Capitalism isn't too different.
Every time there is some crisis or pressure on the economy, technology and methods manage to allow companies to do more with less, slowly displacing the worker.
10,000 get laid off, but in recovery maybe only 5,000 return.

"Re-train"/re-career may work for some, but not all.

Capitalism and Free Market only gives the illusion that Everyman can rise up to the level of the elites. It takes a number of circumstances and opportunities to make a step up in class. And that most frequently occurs for those that rub shoulders (or brown-nose) with the elites.


True, pure capitalism doesn’t work well for those that are medically unwell, some version of “different” and not willing/able to conform to existing norms. Also sometimes bad things just happen to good people, to always assume someone is in a bad situation because of poor choices is also just as uncaring and problematic as pure socialism is for the workers.


Good thing no one is actually advocating the extreme of either system.
chaski On about 16 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#58New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 17:33:42
@dookie Said

I think the idea is that you choose any word ending in "ism" (maybe "ology" or even "ainity" will do) then you drape across it all things you consider adverse, reprehensible, and not able to be equated with one's own predilections and prejudices and moral rectitude. Having disassociated yourself from all such adverse things you then feel justified in supporting the status quo.



OK

I was suspecting that the point was: From the post...

> "The truth is...the same people ruling it now will rule it then. <

Which would mean there is, ultimately no difference, so really we shouldn't worry about political opinion... nothing matters so we probably shouldn't even vote even if given a chance.

But I could be wrong.

dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#59New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 19:12:48
@chaski Said

OK

I was suspecting that the point was: From the post...

> "The truth is...the same people ruling it now will rule it then. <

Which would mean there is, ultimately no difference, so really we shouldn't worry about political opinion... nothing matters so we probably shouldn't even vote even if given a chance.

But I could be wrong.



I think you are more on the ball as far as the original post. I was just going off on one.......a bit of a hang up about bogey words being used. It seems in the USA the word "socialism" is enough to give most of the population the heebie jeebies. Over here in the UK (generally just that little more to what is called "the left" ) socialism is not sufficient, and so its "marxism" that is thrown about. It just stops any serious thought being given to how to bring about any genuine change for the better.

But as you say...........I could be wrong.
4d4m On December 23, 2022




4dforum.org,
#60New Post! Nov 20, 2020 @ 19:25:46
@mrmhead Said

Capitalism isn't too different.
Every time there is some crisis or pressure on the economy, technology and methods manage to allow companies to do more with less, slowly displacing the worker.
10,000 get laid off, but in recovery maybe only 5,000 return.

"Re-train"/re-career may work for some, but not all.

Capitalism and Free Market only gives the illusion that Everyman can rise up to the level of the elites. It takes a number of circumstances and opportunities to make a step up in class. And that most frequently occurs for those that rub shoulders (or brown-nose) with the elites.


The difference is that with Capitalism there is recourse, means to fight back built into the system. It's not perfect but neither is our world. The idea is the government should represent the interests of the people and society in general. When this doesn't happen it is because people are being misled and/or are ambivalent. The answer to this is education and removing those from office who seek to sabotage our way of life.

With Socialism the entire economy is handed to the politicians and their interests become the same. There is no recourse because two entities, large corporations, and politicians have become one. There is no recourse. We criticize politicians who bow to corporate greed and interest. With Socialism we declare they should become one organization.

Socialism is like Monarchism in that, if all the politicians (or Monarch) were wise and good and have the best interests of the society at heart, things will work out just find.

Realism shows that politicians (and Monarchs) are often not wise, good and have self interest as their guiding hand. Therefore, a structure that shares power, influence, has the built in speed bump of Bureaucracy is the most safe and effective way to govern.

Many of the problems with our nation today are being introduced artificially to create frustration with our system in the hopes of creating a violent over reaction that will give those saboteurs a chance to grab power.
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