Political/Religion Debates Here.

Ok, but this is my last post until tomorrow, else you'll keep me up all night! Definately enjoying this.

Well you don't pull any punches, do you? That's another solid question to ask, multi-faceted to answer:



Contradiction: Paul says obey the old law. Christ says we're free of the old law.

Paradox: We're free from the splitting-hairs old law where every breath we take was regulated, but Paul brings up the point that much of that law was built on solid principle, so we should still obey much of it because though we're not bound to every facet of it, the underlying morales are still the same. In fact, the fundamental morals of the old law were restablished in the New Testament to further drive home that point.

I hope I'm making since, this is one of those things I have it straight in my mind, but it's hard to put into words, ya know?

To state it another way: in the OT, you committed adultery, you got stoned. In the NT, you don't get stoned anymore, and in fact Jesus chased off a bunch of holier-than-thous from stoning a prostitute whom Jesus later befriened. Now, perfect example: we're free from that law in that we're not stoned for cheating on our spouses, but we still obey it because it's of sound morality.

The question is always: contradiction or paradox?



Very true, the Spirit has a major hand in helping us discern for those who are have a listening ear.



Paul wasn't stating new law, he was helping communicate the values, the morals that both the Law and the Spirit are involved in. If you can pick and choose any sexual moral, you can pick and choose any moral, and then hey! Muder's okay too!

Let's pick a sexual moral issue to use as an example. I'm talking completely from memory, so if any point you want me to prove it from Scripture, just say "show me" and I will. For time's sake at the moment, I'll keep it more in brief:

One man will marry one woman, else we have some adultery going on. That was established in the beginning of time (though countles people, some otherwise very righteous people, blew it to smitherings in the OT, which many confuse for meaning it made it right), and is still a fundamental teaching today. Now the Bible doesn't just say "that's bad, so I say it's a law and don't do it" and we follow blindly like many think we do. You'll find the Bible explain the why behind it all. Reading of Scripture reveals the principle that we see every day: when you cheapen that most special of one-on-one relationships by having multiple sex partners, it loses its power and specialness. God designed it as a way for two people to be special to each other above everyone else, so that's why it works that way, and that's why it's a "rule" so to speak.

Geez, I feel like I'm rambling. Admittedly, you ask a question that's extremely difficult to answer in one posting on a forum -- you could do an ENTIRE Bible study on this and spend a few weeks on this one question.

Let me try to simplify furhter: 1) God says don't do that, 2) Scripture says why, 3) we do what God says and don't "pick and choose", though 4) you're right that many do anyway.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, my mother is catholic and my dad (well, he was my step-dad for 14 years, and then they got divorced, but I live with him and he's still and always will be my dad)--my dad is methodist. Well, he was raised that way. He doesn't believe in religion either anymore. Shoot, my mom raised us and that's why me and my brother ARE messed up. hahaha But she doesn't have custody of that one, so maybe she'll turn out a little better...although so far she's more messed up....gggaaaahhhh, I'm going to shut up about my family (mainly my mother), cuz it's depressing and sad.

So, er, uh, how bout them hogs? YYYUUCCCKkk, never mind...back to talking about APC, I CAN"T WAIT UNTIL MAY 26TH!! WHOOPEE

Man, I'm rereading my post and I can already argue with myself. I still haven't fully answered you're pick-and-choose morals question though that was an attempt. I still have more to say, so I will when I come back later!

UALRlaw is on it too, though he's much better at saying stuff in fewer words than I.

Very good, Panetti and UALRLAW. I have lots of questions. As they come to me I will just post them in here and people can answer them for me.

Panetti, you're probably right about me keeping you up all night.. I'm the insomniac, remember? I should just hit you up on a messenger, .. It would be a lot more efficient.

Ashley, I understand what you mean about getting sad when thinking about family. My father and I have a horrible relationship, but he tries. We go out to dinner and usually get into a religious debate of some sort. Or we end up talking about how him and mom don't get along. If it's not one thing, it's another. I wish I did have a better relationship with my dad. He's a good man, but difficult to talk to.

You crack me up Ashley! I'm not a sports fan either...

Well, I'll tell a little about me and then I'm off to bed for the night (you guys wore me out!). I'm neither Catholic nor Baptist, and not Methodist. I actually attend a Church of Christ.

So, interesting history behind my church. The idea, one I hold dearly too, is that this whole denomination thing has gotten out of hand. All these different churches are at each other throats, and teaching things that aren't even MENTIONED in the Bible, and so it's no wonder "outsiders" are so darn confused and frustrated with us. So, the Church of Christ is meant to be just that, the church, no other label too it. It's not a denomination, it's just a Christian church. However, many Churches of Christ have gotten off-track have made us a denomination despite that goal. Interesting thing, history.

So my church's goal is to leave behind the days of bickering denominationalism and return to the ways of the original first-century church, the one that that guy Jesus founded as opposed to the various human founders of our denominations. So instead of saying any other church is wrong, we're just saying "hey, we're trying to be as close to Jesus original teaching as possible" and that's it.

The reformation to return to being simply "Church of Christ" began with this family by the name Campbell about a century or so ago (if memory serves correct). The Campbells thought Martin Luther was on the right track when he broke off from the Catholic church, but they though the movement stopped prematurely, which is obvious since it just resulted in a massive splitting of denominations from there. Critics call us "Cambellites" as a result becaues they mistake Alexander Campbell as our church's so-called founder, but he was just a key leader in trying to take us back to the church as Jesus set it up. Just a normal guy, he was.

Anyway, I just believe in following Jesus and the Bible without all the extra doctrinal frill that other churches add on their own. Keep it real. We try not to adhere to silly traditions or man-made religion, just biblical teaching. We're far from perfect at it, but that's the goal anyway.

So there ya go, my background in a nutshell. Nothing more than FYI. Now I'm off to bed! Goodnight folks!

Me and my real dad had a terrible relationship for a while, but it's getting better day by day. Me and my step-dad have a good relationship, I don't have to lie to him about anything really, cuz he's open minded...but sometimes I wish he wouldn't expect so much from me...I'm still just 19. I haven't talked to my mom since December, when she didn't even call me on my birthday...more to it, long story...won't get started, brings up too much anger. Sometimes, I really wish I had a mother, it's like she's dead to me. s***, started thinking ...hate it when that happens...I'm going to go for now. Talk to you tomorrow. Thanks for relating...it's much too rare for me...Don't know you really, but know it means a lot to me, cuz I don't get that much (at all). Talk to you tomorrow...

Goodnight and such. I'm heading off to Diablo 2! Then to sleep (eventually).

Ok, I would like to explain one of my reasons for not believing that Jesus was the Son of God, and I'm interested to hear what you think.

It's all about the idea of salvation. Humans are inherently evil, so they need to be saved. I actually see this as an insult, but I won't get into that. Anyway, when all humans lived in tribal cultures (surviving by hunting/gathering and a little bit of agriculture), they did not see themselves as evil. They did not need salvation. They saw themselves as just another part of nature. They didn't have any concept of land ownership, and they did not view themselves as being better than other animals. The tribes were small, so there was hardly any crime. And by crime I mean going against cultural norms. Any battles that were fought between neighboring tribes were not fought for land because, again, no one owned the land.

Then comes the "Agricultural Revolution," and everything goes to sh*t. One culture decided that they would focus on agriculture instead of hunting and gathering, and for that, they needed land. They started out with a little bit of land that produced a surplus of food for that tribe. What goes hand in hand with a food surplus? A population increase. Therefore, they needed more food, which meant more crops, which meant more land. Then when they fought other tribes, they actually took over their land, and their culture spread all over the place. Now, fast forward several thousand years, when the world population had completely exploded. With so many people in small areas, there were many problems. People looked around and saw a lot of crime, war, poverty, and widespread disease, and they said "Humans are bad. Why are we bad? We must have been born bad." Enter the salvationist religions.

Humans aren't bad. Our culture is bad. By "our culture" I mean 99.9% of the world. The other 0.1% includes tribal cultures that still exist today. And those tribal cultures still don't see themselves as evil.

well before I really delve into the religious debate....of which i probably know less than I should. I'm gonna kinda relate to Ashley again, since we seem to do that so well. lol.

I grew up Christian, I was saved when I was 5, and have tried to live well ever since, I din't really love God til I was 13 though. Being raised in church, I can understand where someone can come across saying christians are brainwashed. I beleived the Bible cause I was told it was right, I forgave others cause I had to...I did alot of things cause I lived in fear of sinning. My Dad was a music minister, and He and my birth mother had two kids, me and my sister. When I was about 1 my mother and sister died in a realy bad car wreck, I was fine and so was my dad. But we were both left with the questions that come after such a hard thing. Why would a good God allow pain? I have develped theories and beliefs as I've ponered it over my life and I will put those in here later. Well another thing about it was my dad had a chemical imbalanc, and after my mothers death he became bi-polar. He was clinically depressed for the rest of his life. Later he fell in love with a woman and she killed herself. This unhinged him again. Finally when I was four he married my step mom and we tried to live a happy life for years after that. But my mom really had a hard time loving my dad, he was always sad, and he had many anger spells. I loved him cause he was my dad, he'd always been there. I loved my step mom too, cause she was really theonly mother I'd ever known. He would poke me and mentally push me to do things right, to think...it's kinda made it hard for me to think under pressure psychologically since then...he always pushed me so hard. He would get this sneer on his face whenever he talked about how I messed up. Me and my stepmother lived in fear of him alot. But on the flip side i never knew another man who loved God as much as my Dad did...he led worship at a church and i was always brought into God's house...I always felt God's heart touch mine. It was a reality for me, not cuase I beleived it, but cause it was real. And my father helped me there. I loved him so much, we used to go to movies alot and discuss them afterwards. I miss him so much...On April 14 2003, he committed suicide, he and my stepmom had seperated when i was in Bible college, and she had been sleeping with another man during the seperation. My dad's mind had totally gone to the darkness, the whipsers in his head had taken over. Even when I moved back to watch over him I couldn't help him, I never knew what to say...I felt so helpless.
I gues you're wondering how I can still believe in a good God after all this, and i can tell you one thing, I still don't have all the answers, i still struggle with why...but I know there was a purpose and it's my life's goal to find that. And much like i loved dad even when he hurt me, I still love God.
And that's my testimony...more on what I believe about religion later...

I believe it was Asimov that said Religion is a disease of the mind. We spend way to much time focusing on our fear of death and the hope that we will get to continue(even subserviantly as would occur in heaven), where by the way the sheer volume of gold composing the streets would negate the value of gold, and ruin your investments.
To me there is a being out there, that cares. In my heart i believe it wants us to care and make a change for the better.

The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God, therefore immune to misrepresentation. I don't agree with that, but it is a tenant which is thought.

If you use your religion to judge, then your violating every belief you propose to have.

If your a terrorist and believe you should blow up innocent people, I hope you get to meet God one day. I would buy tickets to that...

First, I would like to say that I am saved. I was saved and baptized when I was 14 years old on my own request. During which, I quit smoking, cussing, drinking, and smoking weed. (Heh, I was an A student though). Life was better. I was happier and more confident, and I can remember very clearly the feeling I had when I was saved. So now, what's the problem? Well, I delt with some hypocrisy and that changed my views on a lot of things. Hypocrisy within my own church... my own youth group. I was ashamed. Disgusted and ashamed to be associated with these people. These.. psuedo-Christians. So.. I left the church.

Now.. about 6 or 7 years later.. I'm still searching for answers. I completely started over with my beliefs. I didn't believe in God very much at one point (heh, I almost get teary-eyed just typing that..). It's not a very nice feeling when you've misplaced your faith. (I don't believe faith can be lost.) I still don't know where I stand as far as Jesus goes, but I'm going about finding answers in the ways I want to. Reading the Bible is too easy for me.. so of course, I'm doing everything the hard way. I think it will be more spiritually rewarding for me in the end.

I'm still dealing with some other issues I won't really get into right now. I will say a majority of it was the death of my grandmother though.. and this was 3 years ago. I think it still has something to do why I have trouble sleeping at night, but this is just a theory.

I'm not sure the point I was trying to make here, but okay! Thanks for reading!

yesterday march 31, 1998 was the day my father died.
I went to school, typed on the forum and then dropped a beer off at his little headstone, out on south 195. So i know what you mean about sleep.
smile, life is all about living...

Justin, I can definately relate. Almost unfortunately. I am sorry to hear about your parents. Hearing about your dad is kind of scary, because I am bi-polar. I think a lot of the stuff I went thru with my mother mixed with smoking pot and drinking when I was younger is what triggered mine. Fortunately, for the most part, it doesn't get the best of me. My degree of bi-polar disorder is not so bad...so far. I'm a rapid-cycler, which means that instead of spending weeks or months on an extreme hi or lo, I go thru an entire cycle in a day. I can be in the best mood in the morning, and by lunch, someone has seriously upset me and I'm either quite pissy or quite mopey. I was taking medicine and going to therapy for a while, but I have ceased to do both. They helped me a lot in that they taught me how to deal with things better, and so now that I'm not taking meds or going to therapy, I can still cope, because I learned how. If you were to just meet me and hang out with me for a week straight, you would probably think I could be very moody depending on my enviroment. But it's deeper than that, and people that know me and care realize that if I'm not the nicest, it's nothing to do with them, it's something I can't help.
It didn't help much that I didn't find out that I was bi-polar until after me and my ex split...all along the anti-depressants I was taking was actually making me worse, cuz it was the wrong medicine. I went thru a few months of really hard times, during which me and my mother and her family got into some really serious fights, and i haven't talked to them since. Then a couple of months later (on my little sisters birthday), my biological father's mother died. I was around her more than any other grandparent, and she was like a second mother to me. Now, this week, my best friend since 6th grade and I got in a fight, and it's looking like I might lose her too.

Faith in god isn't something I'm good at keeping, and surely any person who's been thru bad times can understand. The more I try, the more bad stuff happens. I try to stay positive overall, cuz in the end, I know everything will be okay. Sometimes (like now) its kinda hard to be so positive. I think it would be easier if I had a mother, or someone who would really listen. I really hope my new boyfriend will do that for me. Honestly, I am still weary about calling him that, because the last boyfriend I had ripped me apart. I'm going to keep on keepin on tho. Tonight is just a down night...I'm sure sometime tomorrow, I will be little miss chipper again...it always comes in phases...

Sorry I've been scarce today guys...I just now got home aftet a long, long day. Had work all day, then dragged myself from there straight to class, then had a late-night date....And ya know what? For someone who can be so blunt and open on these forums, girls scare the crap outta me still! I am such a CHICKEN!!!

But anywho, my brain's gone, so I'm not even gonna try to discuss tonight. Which sucks because from what I'm scanning, you guys are bringing up some great topics that I'm dying to jump in and talk about. So, I'll play catch up later -- promise! But now...must....sleeeeeep...*thump*

Parting thoughts though, so I at least say somethin' -- Sin, I know how you feel. I was betrayed by my old church. Long story short, our minister there, who wasn't just my minister but my close friend and mentor, was essentially fired. Why? Nothing but small-church politics, that's it. Elders got power hungry and he was in the way. After they ousted him, they completey ignored me (I was kind of his right-hand man, in charge of the new drama ministry). They killed off my work without speaking a word, ignored my protests, and that was that.

Needless to say, I was upset, betrayed by my own brethren, the victim of the utmost of religious hypocrisy. So, without another word I up and left and never came back.

I'm glad I didn't give in to the tempation of letting it develop a bias in me though. I couldn't let their hypocrisy bring me down, so I went looking for a church that was real -- that wasn't about image or money or who's who. Fortunately I found it, and the church I attend now is wonderfully awesome. We've also got a huge and active young singles group, whereas at my old church it was like -- 5-6 of us. I'll never fully understand what happened, but that stab in the back led me to greater things, so I don't complain. But I wonder how many from my old church gave up on the faith after being betrayed like we all were? That bothers me. It's hard to keep going after that. But it serves to remind of what I mustn't become. If I'm simply religious, I'm nothing at all. Religion is a practice that enhances the real thing -- faith, truth, reality. Religion is for those of us who have trouble grasping that reality and need a device to aid us, but it is not wholly in itself that reality. God is much bigger than religion. And Jesus Christ rebelled against religion.

And now my eyelids are all the heavier, so that's about all I can spew out tonight. But I'll answer those questions from my perspective and jump back into the discussion soon.

By the way, that single's group's started if you haven't noticed. I'll be moderating, so give me enough time to get some things squared away, and then we'll get crackin'!