North/South Divide

@Jennifer1984 Said

Now, the ... scottish shipyards... are all gone.

@Jennifer1984 Said


Now, the coal industry of Yorkshire and the north east... the scottish shipyards... the milltowns of Lancashire.... engineering manufacturing in the West Midlands... are all gone and the northerners have lost that thing they identified with most. They've lost the thing that defined them.

And they resent that.

And yet, the south goes on, doing what it does being businesslike and still making at least, some wealth in these recessionary times.

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@Jennifer1984 Said

There was a saying going around, a few years back, that if you drew a line through the country from the Dee to the Ex (they're rivers), then about 70% of Britain's national wealth is produced to the south of the line. I don't know if that is true or not, but it was something that was bandied about a lot at the time.
At one time, many southerners tended towards the view that the North was dark and unpleasant but necessary. The North was the industrial pulse of the country. Everything was made in the North. The factories, shipyards, steel mills... you name it... they were all based in the north.
The working classes of the north thought of themselves as "Salt-of-the-earth" types. All "honest labour" and full of "Working class dignity" and therefore, as there were no factories in the south, southerners couldn't possibly have any of those attributes. Of course, that was ridiculous, but hell, it's not a big deal. So a few jibes were bandied about.. So what..?
Now, the coal industry of Yorkshire and the north east... the scottish shipyards... the milltowns of Lancashire.... engineering manufacturing in the West Midlands... are all gone and the northerners have lost that thing they identified with most. They've lost the thing that defined them.
And they resent that.
And yet, the south goes on, doing what it does being businesslike and still making at least, some wealth in these recessionary times.
At one time, northern working class dignity was a very real thing. But creeping socialist industrial ideology took decent, hardworking people and insinuated into them a culture of expecting "jobs for life". A young man would finish school at 15 and walk out of the school gates on Friday, in through the factory gates on Monday, where his dad, grand dad, uncles, brothers, and everybody else in his family worked, and he'd stay there until he either retired or died (whichever came first).
It was comforting. It was reassuring for him to know that his future was taken care of and as long as he put in his shift, everything was going to be wonderful.
The unions would ensure that standards of living were maintained and that was a good thing too... at first. But the unions soon became drunk with power and were infiltrated by industrial wreckers ... militant, hard liners with agendas that were definitely not in the best interests of the workers. By this time though, those workers had been seduced into believing the Animal Farm principle.... "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad" turned into "Northern Workers Good, Southern Bosses Bad.
Hard line militancy beat down weak politicians, who wouldn't (couldn't?) take them on. The workers were seduced into believing that they didn't really have to work hard anymore... and there was no incentive to do so. Their jobs were secure... their future assured. Why work hard..? The socialist Utopia had arrived...!!
The unions stifled innovation (modern machines couldn't be allowed to take workers jobs). There was no money for investment (Workers pay packets had to be protected against inflation). It was a culture of stagnation brought about by an attitude that nothing would ever have to change. Everything was rosy in the socialist utopian workers paradise.
The steel workers, dockers, shipbuilders.... they didn't really have to work hard, all they had to do was make sure they clocked in and out at the right times, and what happened between was... well.... not really that important.
But it made Britain "The Sick Man Of Europe". Those factories, that were once the powerhouse of Britains economy were now producing outdated goods that were shoddily made, expensive, unattractive to buyers and were invariably late in being delivered or not delivered at all.
I have seen images from the 1970's where the old British Leyland car factory had a (biiiiiig) parking lot, full of thousands and thousands of cars that had been made, but couldn't be sold. Nobody would buy them. But, according to the unions, that wasn't their problem. They demanded that the government keep subsidising the factory in order to keep it open and protect jobs for people who were producing crap cars that nobody wanted. Even Leyland workers didn't drive the cars they manufactured..!! They were that bad.
The trades unions, and the indulgent Labour government of the 1970's brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy. I've read all about the Winter Of Discontent, where rubbish piled up in the streets, and they even prevented the dead from being buried in order to pursue some petty point..... "Working Class Solidarity" was the catch-all phrase used to justify anything.
This was the status quo that the north wanted to preserve, but Margaret Thatcher wasn't having it. No wonder she is so hated. If there was a class war in the 1980's, then the working classes of the north comprehensively lost it.
The miners of Yorkshire followed a deluded insurrectionist named Arthur Scargill in what he believed would be a glorious victory for socialism. It ended, for him, in ignominious defeat and humiliation and desolation for the Yorkshire miners No wonder there is resentment in the north.
I was born in 1984, when the pit strike was at its height. I have only ever seen the video footage of the rioting, the pitched battles with police, and I've read about the politics of it.
The reason for the north / south divide is clear. It's about the socialist ideology of the north versus the pragmatic "let's just make money" capitalist attitudes of the south. I'm not suggesting one is better or worse than the other, but at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to. What started out as a mild bit of local rivalry is now a real and bitter cause for enmity.
So, Scotland hates Thatcher because of the Poll Tax.? I agree that the Poll Tax was an unfair tax and it should never have come into existence, but it's over now, long gone and dead. Move on, for goodness sake.
And hey...... If Scots hate Thatcher that much, they should be grateful to the Pol Tax... it was the Poll Tax that actually brought Thatcher down..!! without it, she would probably have had another ten years in Downing Street. The glass can be half full, you know.
The north / south divide is very real and that's a shame, but it's the northerners that are perpetuating it with their simmering resentment and inability to get over the causes of it, and simply move on.
Down here, in the south, we don't think unkindly of northerners, as such. We tend to go about our business and do what we can to make the best go of life. We work hard, try to make money and attempt to build good businesses. Work smarter, not harder. Make products that somebody wants, produce them on time, to order, and at a price the buyer likes. It works, you know.
In pockets of the north, the southern working model is catching on but there is still a lot of the old mentality around, and the resentment that festers in the hollow bosoms of those who can't adapt to a changing world, is the real.... only..... reason why there is a north / south divide in this country.
The North / South divide exists. But it's mostly in the heads of northerners.
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@Jennifer1984 Said

There was a saying going around, a few years back, that if you drew a line through the country from the Dee to the Ex (they're rivers), then about 70% of Britain's national wealth is produced to the south of the line. I don't know if that is true or not, but it was something that was bandied about a lot at the time.

At one time, many southerners tended towards the view that the North was dark and unpleasant but necessary. The North was the industrial pulse of the country. Everything was made in the North. The factories, shipyards, steel mills... you name it... they were all based in the north.

The working classes of the north thought of themselves as "Salt-of-the-earth" types. All "honest labour" and full of "Working class dignity" and therefore, as there were no factories in the south, southerners couldn't possibly have any of those attributes. Of course, that was ridiculous, but hell, it's not a big deal. So a few jibes were bandied about.. So what..?

Now, the coal industry of Yorkshire and the north east... the scottish shipyards... the milltowns of Lancashire.... engineering manufacturing in the West Midlands... are all gone and the northerners have lost that thing they identified with most. They've lost the thing that defined them.

And they resent that.

And yet, the south goes on, doing what it does being businesslike and still making at least, some wealth in these recessionary times.

At one time, northern working class dignity was a very real thing. But creeping socialist industrial ideology took decent, hardworking people and insinuated into them a culture of expecting "jobs for life". A young man would finish school at 15 and walk out of the school gates on Friday, in through the factory gates on Monday, where his dad, grand dad, uncles, brothers, and everybody else in his family worked, and he'd stay there until he either retired or died (whichever came first).

It was comforting. It was reassuring for him to know that his future was taken care of and as long as he put in his shift, everything was going to be wonderful.

The unions would ensure that standards of living were maintained and that was a good thing too... at first. But the unions soon became drunk with power and were infiltrated by industrial wreckers ... militant, hard liners with agendas that were definitely not in the best interests of the workers. By this time though, those workers had been seduced into believing the Animal Farm principle.... "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad" turned into "Northern Workers Good, Southern Bosses Bad.

Hard line militancy beat down weak politicians, who wouldn't (couldn't?) take them on. The workers were seduced into believing that they didn't really have to work hard anymore... and there was no incentive to do so. Their jobs were secure... their future assured. Why work hard..? The socialist Utopia had arrived...!!

The unions stifled innovation (modern machines couldn't be allowed to take workers jobs). There was no money for investment (Workers pay packets had to be protected against inflation). It was a culture of stagnation brought about by an attitude that nothing would ever have to change. Everything was rosy in the socialist utopian workers paradise.

The steel workers, dockers, shipbuilders.... they didn't really have to work hard, all they had to do was make sure they clocked in and out at the right times, and what happened between was... well.... not really that important.

But it made Britain "The Sick Man Of Europe". Those factories, that were once the powerhouse of Britains economy were now producing outdated goods that were shoddily made, expensive, unattractive to buyers and were invariably late in being delivered or not delivered at all.

I have seen images from the 1970's where the old British Leyland car factory had a (biiiiiig) parking lot, full of thousands and thousands of cars that had been made, but couldn't be sold. Nobody would buy them. But, according to the unions, that wasn't their problem. They demanded that the government keep subsidising the factory in order to keep it open and protect jobs for people who were producing crap cars that nobody wanted. Even Leyland workers didn't drive the cars they manufactured..!! They were that bad.

The trades unions, and the indulgent Labour government of the 1970's brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy. I've read all about the Winter Of Discontent, where rubbish piled up in the streets, and they even prevented the dead from being buried in order to pursue some petty point..... "Working Class Solidarity" was the catch-all phrase used to justify anything.

This was the status quo that the north wanted to preserve, but Margaret Thatcher wasn't having it. No wonder she is so hated. If there was a class war in the 1980's, then the working classes of the north comprehensively lost it.

The miners of Yorkshire followed a deluded insurrectionist named Arthur Scargill in what he believed would be a glorious victory for socialism. It ended, for him, in ignominious defeat and humiliation and desolation for the Yorkshire miners No wonder there is resentment in the north.

I was born in 1984, when the pit strike was at its height. I have only ever seen the video footage of the rioting, the pitched battles with police, and I've read about the politics of it.

The reason for the north / south divide is clear. It's about the socialist ideology of the north versus the pragmatic "let's just make money" capitalist attitudes of the south. I'm not suggesting one is better or worse than the other, but at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to. What started out as a mild bit of local rivalry is now a real and bitter cause for enmity.

So, Scotland hates Thatcher because of the Poll Tax.? I agree that the Poll Tax was an unfair tax and it should never have come into existence, but it's over now, long gone and dead. Move on, for goodness sake.

And hey...... If Scots hate Thatcher that much, they should be grateful to the Pol Tax... it was the Poll Tax that actually brought Thatcher down..!! without it, she would probably have had another ten years in Downing Street. The glass can be half full, you know.

The north / south divide is very real and that's a shame, but it's the northerners that are perpetuating it with their simmering resentment and inability to get over the causes of it, and simply move on.

Down here, in the south, we don't think unkindly of northerners, as such. We tend to go about our business and do what we can to make the best go of life. We work hard, try to make money and attempt to build good businesses. Work smarter, not harder. Make products that somebody wants, produce them on time, to order, and at a price the buyer likes. It works, you know.

In pockets of the north, the southern working model is catching on but there is still a lot of the old mentality around, and the resentment that festers in the hollow bosoms of those who can't adapt to a changing world, is the real.... only..... reason why there is a north / south divide in this country.

The North / South divide exists. But it's mostly in the heads of northerners.


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@Bimbo Said

London also has a significant industrial past. Especially for dockyards. You don't find rigid Labour support wholesale among families round here in London like you do up North, so in that sense there is a very real division in political culture at least.

@Jennifer1984 Said

I know all about the London docklands, Bim.... I was born in Greenwich and grew up in South London. The docklands of south and east London were always very hard core areas of Labour support, and they too suffered under Thatcher. Since then, there has been regeneration of the area and that has led to a (slight, but significant) shift of voting patterns away from the hard left in recent years.

It is true that there was some industry in the south (the Kent coalfields, for example), but they tended to be 'pockets' of industrialisation.... not seriously affecting the big picture in the same way that they affected the north.

Taking into account the example of how the regeneration of the London docklands is affecting voting patterns, do you think Thatcher might have missed a trick in not giving money to the north and thus possibly changing the political landscape, or do you think it would have been "a lot of money for small political reward"? (that is, the north would have taken the money and still voted Labour anyway)

Jim... I'd like to have a think about your last post. Good points, my friend. Gotta be off now, though... duty calls. LOL. Have a good day.


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