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MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 10:20:04
Matthew 5:43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect".

The above is one of the marks of a true Christian. How can killing people for whatever reason or on however's orders comply with that?

It can't, simple as that.

Also, what more evidence do you need of a loving God than his giving even the unrighteous, and to continue to provide them with what they need, so they can learn the error of their ways?
Electric_Banana On July 06, 2020




, New Zealand
#2New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 10:43:17
@MadCornishBiker Said

Matthew 5:43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect".

The above is one of the marks of a true Christian. How can killing people for whatever reason or on however's orders comply with that?

It can't, simple as that.

Also, what more evidence do you need of a loving God than his giving even the unrighteous, and to continue to provide them with what they need, so they can learn the error of their ways?


-I've never really had the ambition to put on a little suit and shoot at people.

I don't mean to trivialize the soldiers though because they believe that they are doing right.

Also, in the instance that we are in a situation that could come under invasion you do need people willing to take up arms and defend I don't agree with being sent to attack however.

-Were there tax collector's in Christ's time?

-"48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect"

I think one of the lessons to life is that the heavenly father will be found to imperfect such as everyone else but does anyone need to be completely perfect in order to love and respect them if they have good advice to offer and our best interests?
CausaMortis On April 20, 2012




San Antonio, Texas
#3New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 10:50:48
In Romans 13 Christians are called upon to submit themselves before the government and obey its laws, for there are no other government except those ordained by god. So to address your question, when a christian is drafted by the government to serve in its military, in my view there are few justifiable reasons for them to refuse god's will, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar." Upon joining the military one makes an oath before god and country to obey the orders of their superior officers (remember what jesus said about taking oaths, do not take them lightly, let your yes be yes); therefore, such a christian has a heavy duty and burden to bear when serving in the military. Duty, honor, service should become their standard and if doing one's duty compels him to take life, then it should be without malice or cruelty in one's heart. God is far more interested in what's in a man's heart than what they are asked to do for a living. I do not approve of murder, think war is inhumane, but sometimes these decisions are not what they appear to be on the surface, and if by chance my interpretation of the bible is wrong, then I will ask god for forgiveness for my only desire was to do his will and not mine, I never really had a desire to really hurt anyone.

I might be one of the only posters that will attempt to engage you on this level, don't bash my interpretation of the bible because I may disagree with you, I have thought these beliefs out and reconciled them with my personal experiences.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 10:54:47
@Electric_Banana Said

-I've never really had the ambition to put on a little suit and shoot at people.

I don't mean to trivialize the soldiers though because they believe that they are doing right.

Also, in the instance that we are in a situation that could come under invasion you do need people willing to take up arms and defend I don't agree with being sent to attack however.

-Were there tax collector's in Christ's time?

-"48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect"

I think one of the lessons to life is that the heavenly father will be found to imperfect such as everyone else but does anyone need to be completely perfect in order to love and respect them if they have good advice to offer and our best interests?



Matthew was a tax collector when Christ invited him to follow. There have been tax collectors as long as there have been taxes.

No. One thing is for certain, God is perfect, absolutely. That's why it is impossible for men to live up to His standards in the current situation.

Yes I quite agree that soldiers believe they are doing right, but that doesn't mean they are. Belief if wrong can be fatal, after all some people have been known to believe thy could fly without an airplane or anything similar.

The only one who has the wisdom and knowledge to know what is in our best interests is God. That makes Him the only one worth listening to.

If you follow God properly you rely on Him for protection not any human. Also what difference does it make whose government rules over you when they are all under Satan's control? In the short term maybe a little, but not in the long term. God has shown His protection in the past, but all too often humans take credit for it.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 10:57:32
@CausaMortis Said

In Romans 13 Christians are called upon to submit themselves before the government and obey its laws, for there are no other government except those ordained by god. So to address your question, when a christian is drafted by the government to serve in its military, in my view there are few justifiable reasons for them to refuse god's will, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar." Upon joining the military one makes an oath before god and country to obey the orders of their superior orders (remember what jesus said about taking oaths, do not take them lightly, let your yes be yes); therefore, such a christian has a heavy duty and burden to bear when serving in the military. Duty, honor, service shoiuld become their standard and if doing one's duty compells him to take life, then it should be without malice or cruelty in one's. God is far more interested in what's in a man's heart than what they are asked to do for a living. I do not approve of murder, think war is inhumane, but sometimes these decisions are not what they appear to be on the surface, and if by chance my interpretation of the bible is wrong, then I will ask god for forgiveness for my only desire was to do his will and not mine.

I might be one of the only posters that will attempt to engage you on this level, don't bash my interpretation of the bible because I may disagree with you, I have thought these beliefs out and reconciled them with my personal experiences.


Yes but as Jesus said, give Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God, and God's law always takes precedence.

You cannot, as Jesus said, serve two masters, either you serve God or Satan's system.
Electric_Banana On July 06, 2020




, New Zealand
#6New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:10:17
@MadCornishBiker Said



Yes I quite agree that soldiers believe they are doing right, but that doesn't mean they are. Belief if wrong can be fatal, after all some people have been known to believe thy could fly without an airplane or anything similar.


So the real Superman's story wasn't nearly as long and as fascinating as DC Comics made it out to be?

Kidding.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:14:15
@Electric_Banana Said

So the real Superman's story wasn't nearly as long and as fascinating as DC Comics made it out to be?

Kidding.


Nice one, lol.
CausaMortis On April 20, 2012




San Antonio, Texas
#8New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:18:51
@Electric_Banana Said

So the real Superman's story wasn't nearly as long and as fascinating as DC Comics made it out to be?

Kidding.


My point is that it is my belief as supported by the bible that god ordains these governments to exist, and their will is one in the same. By serving the government and doing one's duty, you are submitting yourself not only before your country but before god. I think in 10000 years from now god's not really going to care what you did for a living, but what was in one's heart whether it was duty or malice.

More importantly, why is it important that you judge your fellow christians in the military, jesus did not do that. On the contrary jesus praised the centurion for having the greatest of faiths. Mind you this was a Roman centurion who almost doubtlessly had to perform his duty and enforce his government's will, which probably equated to taking life or giving orders to take life, but jesus saw beyond that and knew what was in his heart.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#9New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:21:25
@CausaMortis Said

My point is that it is my belief as supported by the bible that god ordains these governments to exist, and their will is one in the same.


Do you believe that there has never been any evil government? That every military in history has been ordained by God?
CausaMortis On April 20, 2012




San Antonio, Texas
#10New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:29:44
@Eaglebauer Said

Do you believe that there has never been any evil government? That every military in history has been ordained by God?



I don't think governments are necessarily evil or good, they just are. It's like asking me if I think there was ever an "evil" chair or an "evil" refrigerator.

I think probably the best answer I could give you is that, yes some people in some goverments may have been evil like stalin or hitler for instance, but then others in that same government weren't so evil and just wanted to do their duty or were otherwise misguided.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#11New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:38:35
@CausaMortis Said

I don't think governments are necessarily evil or good, they just are. It's like asking me if I think there was ever an "evil" chair or an "evil" refrigerator.

I think probably the best answer I could give you is that, yes some people in some goverments may have been evil like stalin or hitler for instance, but then others in that same government weren't so evil and just wanted to do their duty or were otherwise misguided.



There are a lot of people though who believe that certain forms of government are inherently evil based upon the mechanisms that give them their definition, such as fascism or communism. I don't mean to open a debate on those two specifically, but there are those who would say quite vehemently that one or the other (or perhaps both) are based on evil ideas.
CausaMortis On April 20, 2012




San Antonio, Texas
#12New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:47:37
@Eaglebauer Said

There are a lot of people though who believe that certain forms of government are inherently evil based upon the mechanisms that give them their definition, such as fascism or communism. I don't mean to open a debate on those two specifically, but there are those who would say quite vehemently that one or the other (or perhaps both) are based on evil ideas.


I don't agree with such beliefs, I believe that governments are run by people, and as a general rule I believe that most people are good, and only want to live an honorable life.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#13New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 11:53:55
@CausaMortis Said

I don't agree with such beliefs, I believe that governments are run by people, and as a general rule I believe that most people are good, and only want to live an honorable life.



But if a governmental system is founded upon ideas that are in and of themselves evil, then the system is bound to be an evil one. I guess the real question at stake is whether actions are evil or the people who commit them?

Is the murder of the innocent evil as an action, or just the murderer?
CausaMortis On April 20, 2012




San Antonio, Texas
#14New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 12:04:32
@Eaglebauer Said

But if a governmental system is founded upon ideas that are in and of themselves evil, then the system is bound to be an evil one. I guess the real question at stake is whether actions are evil or the people who commit them?

Is the murder of the innocent evil as an action, or just the murderer?


In general these are questions that all people must answer for themselves be they christian, muslims, or atheists. Do some governments commit more injustices than others? Is it justified to kill innocent people in order to stop further evil from being committed, the civilian bombing of dresden comes to mind. All I can say is that it's not my job to judge people, that job's already taken. I look at people in the government as individuals under every political system.
Electric_Banana On July 06, 2020




, New Zealand
#15New Post! Dec 24, 2011 @ 14:03:32
@Eaglebauer Said

But if a governmental system is founded upon ideas that are in and of themselves evil, then the system is bound to be an evil one. I guess the real question at stake is whether actions are evil or the people who commit them?

Is the murder of the innocent evil as an action, or just the murderer?



I personally don't think there is a true intentional evil but a lot of suffering is caused because of people looking to find and mistaking it in others.

Misconceptions due to warped perceptions of only partially understood concepts that are not commonly disclosed for good reason.

This is all the base catalyst for people losing care and concern for others which leads to greed and empires that feed on the weak.
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