Why is it illogical to claim that you tell the whole absolute truth and speak only the truth of God's word, not interpretations of God's word, when you have been repeatedly shown to be interpreting the bible wrong? Do you really need me to explain this?
@MadCornishBiker Said 
I suppose I should add, as I sometimes do,that the JWs and I only deal in revealed truth, and we do, as far as it has been revealed to date. The fallibility comes in on the occasions where the truth of something has not yet been revealed.
Fair enough. But, what about those revealed truths that are the contradicted by later revealed truths? According to JWs, this world ended in 1874, then 1874 became some great harvest time, then, all the saints were to be removed from earth before 1914, then, 1914 was the end of this world system, then, 1914 was the last generation and the end was going to come in 1918, then 1925, then, before the last person born in 1914 dies.
This is not infallible progressive revelation nor anything that could be mistaken for it.
@MadCornishBiker Said I have said many times that the JWs may not have all the truth yet, but they have more of it than anyone else, and for now that is enough for me.
And yet they tell you, it seems, that Christ is not the Alpha and Omega, but he calls himself Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22. If they have all truth, why do you not know what the term "Son of God" meant to the Jews - especially considering that John made it blisteringly clear in John 5:18? Why do you not know that "firstborn" means "preeminent," not "created," - if they have all this revealed truth, why don't you have it?
@MadCornishBiker Said Ah but the only reason you believe it to be false is because you don't truly believe what the bible tells us. You only accept the parts that agree with the one or two scriptures that have been twisted to mean what they do not.
No offence, but this is actually funny.
Genesis 18 Afterward Jehovah appeared to [Abraham] among the big trees of Mam´re... [Abraham] said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant." [...] 13 Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why was it that Sarah laughed...?" [...]Jehovah said: “The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”
The bible, Abraham and Jehovah, all call Jehovah Jehovah, but, the "Jehovah's Witnesses" disagree, and say this is not Jehovah, don't they?
According to the JWs, who is this Jehovah?
@MadCornishBiker Said The fact that they then contradict a dozen others, which state their case incontrovertibly, doesn't tell you, as it does me, that the understanding of the one or two is wrong. However that is hardly surprising since you evidently prefer to take the word of men over the word of God, no matter how plainly stated.
And yet, based on sound evidence, I say the same of you. JW belief makes the bible, Jehovah and Abraham all liars in Genesis 18, and makes Christ a liar and false prophet when he prophesied that he would raise his body from the dead.
@MadCornishBiker Said If you ever overcome that you will have learned how to let the bible interpret itself.
Indeed.
@MadCornishBiker Said I claim no infallibility for myself, only for God and His word.
And yet, you have said repeatedly that you speak only as you are guided by the Spirit. Are you saying that you sometimes get this guidance wrong, or, that the spirit deceives you, or, that perhaps sometimes you think it is God's Spirit, but it is someone else?
If you are wrong on some things that the spirit prompts you on, then, you are wrong on some things. To say, as the JWs do in effect, that 'we are only wrong on the things that have been proven wrong,' (ie, the false prophecies), is rather absurd. There is no logical basis for accepting this, and appears based more on pride than sound reasoning.
When your belief makes the bible a lie, it should be cause for concern and reconsideration. I have given three examples here of this very thing - and if we throw in the fact that Jehovah also spoke with Adam and Eve, we have a fourth.
@MadCornishBiker Said But that is the whole point, and the thing you obviously haven't learned to do yourself. I am not interpreting it, I am allowing it to interpret itself by harmonising each scripture with all other relevant scriptures. When you can do that, you will make far less mistakes.
But clearly this is false. I put it to you that Christ as God is far more harmonising with scripture than Christ as Michael.
It not only explains who Adam, Eve, Abraham and Sarah spoke to, but it also eliminates ridiculous renderings of verses like, "God is your throne," when the verse reads more accurately as, "Your throne, Oh God."
Throw in the fact 'Son of God' means, according to *both* John (5:18) and the Jewish people (John 10:33) that Christ claimed to be equal with God, and Christ saying "I and the Father are one," and both Christ and God being the Alpha and Omega, and both being our eternal father, both being "Mighty God," and Christ being perfect, and being the very "likeness of God" and being with God in the beginning, and "all things were created through him" and all things were created for him, and you start to see a compelling case. Then, you add in the most likely rendering of John 1:1, and it all starts to make sense.
It is no wonder that the early Christians all taught the deity of Christ, including guys like Ignatius of Antioch (30-107AD), who was born before Christ died, wrote at the same time as the Apostles, to the same churches, and was never castigated as an apostate, despite repeatedly speaking of the deity of Christ.
@MadCornishBiker Said And yet if you understood even the most basic Christian truths you would not keep dwelling on mistakes which have been righted, but would rather set about correcting your own.
And yet, the JWs, amongst their many harsh and judgmental statements about Christians, say that they are guilty of ecumenism. Further, they castigate ecumenism and call it leaven that leavens the whole batch of dough. But, when they get caught in blatant paganism, they merely disregard it with a casual "oh, yes, that was a mistake but we don't do that now, and be careful not to judge us you apostate liars and demon spawned wicked servant of Satan, because God does not like people to judge people."
With the measure you use, MCB, it will be measured back to you. But again, I am not calling JWs evil, or apostate, or liars, or fools, or servants of Satan as the JWs call me, I am merely calling them deceived. Although, to be fair, I am also calling Russell, at the very least, a deceiver. His blatant lies about the pyramid that he read are enough to lable him a false teacher and or liar (again, I will happily say that no doubt he did these things for what he thought were good reasons, but this does not change the fact that he lied to people).
@MadCornishBiker Said No, they have never claimed to be prophets. They do however, with good reason , claim to be God's people.
And this too, is false. I have provided you with quotes from their own written works wherein they claim to be prophets.
@MadCornishBiker Said They fully recognise that it is impossible for any to claim to be prophets because, as Paul points out, such gifts will cease, and in fact did with the death of John, the last of the Apostles. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. This means that no-one can claim to be a prophet.
And here again, we see the JWs inability to interpret the bible. Paul here is not even speaking about prophecy. It is merely a passing remark comparing prophecy to love. The entire point that Paul is making is that love is to be an unceasing, constant, 24/7 part of Christian life. In this, love is unique, and is greater than prophecy or any other spiritual gift.
@MadCornishBiker Said What the JWs did,and do, claim to be is interpreters of Prophecy, with the aid of Holy Spirit.
And herein we see yet another major problem. The JWs have so far said that the world will end in 1874, 1914, 1918, sometimes in the early 1920s, and 1925 that I have found evidence for (although there are others). They have also claimed that all JWs would be lifted from earth and changed prior to 1914. Now, they claim that the end will come before the everyone that was alive in 1914 dies. And, as you have said yourself, if God chooses to keep someone from 1914 alive for 150 years, then, so be it...
Now, colour me cynical, but, I too can say, "this world system will end sometime in the next 150 years," and be fairly confident that no-one that is alive now will be around to call me a liar. I really do not even need to pretend that the Holy Spirit helped me with that 'revelation.'
@MadCornishBiker Said Whilst I have said before, and say again,they have sometimes run ahead of God and tried to understand things which it was not yet God's time to have known, and thereby made mistakes. They are the only channel through whom God reveals things now. He has only ever had one channel.
I know that the JWs use this to justify themselves, but, this too, is false. Under law, there was the Jews (who split anyway), but, we are not under law. When Phillip spoke to and converted the Ethiopian, he sent him on his way. He did not say, "you need to join such and such church." Christ also at times healed people and sent them off to tell people what had happened - he did not say, you need to join this church. When the disciples rebuked someone for preaching Christ because he did not follow the disciples and Jesus, Jesus told them not to. He did not say, "the guy is not a follower of mine because he is not with us."
@MadCornishBiker Said As time has gone on, they have learned patience, and to wait God's time for the knowledge to be revealed, but not before they had made a number of mistakes as you rightly say. However those mistakes are behind them, and God has forgiven them, because they humbly accepted His correction.
But again, there is no reason to accept this, other than the say so of people who have been shown wrong time and again, and whose current prediction smacks of paganism - whether the 1914 date was arrived at via poor knowledge of biblical history (they have the wrong date for the fall of Jerusalem as their starting point), or, through pagan pyramid reading (in which the dimensions of the pyramid were also read wrong), either way, it is dubious that both wrong readings give the same date.
I see more than a significant reason to doubt them.
@MadCornishBiker Said Ah yes, lol, but you know as well as I do that speaking as something does not mean being it.
Again, not this "prophet" but this one "speaking as a prophet" again not the same thing.
And yet, in that quote they clearly say to test their claim to prophet-hood based on their record. Well, their record clearly shows that they do not hear from God or the Holy Spirit when predicting future events. This is so self evident it should not even be disputed by you or anyone else.
@MadCornishBiker Said Because they are His representatives on earth, and the ones through whom He reveals all "new" spiritual truths and understandings. They are the one spoken of in prophecy by Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. 19 The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling.
And again, we see cult logic in action - they hold their errors aloft as proof that they are right.
How can one possibly argue against that?
To restate the JW position in layman's terms; "If we are not proven wrong, this shows that we are right. If we are proven wrong, this shows that we are right."
@MadCornishBiker Said Actually they often make me think of this one in Isaiah 26:7 "The path of the righteous one is uprightness. You being upright, you will smooth out the very course of a righteous one. 8 Yes, for the path of your judgments, O Jehovah, we have hoped in you. For your name and for your memorial the desire of the soul has been. 9 With my soul I have desired you in the night; yes, with my spirit within me I keep looking for you; because, when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn. 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah." Especially verses 8 and 9, which applied to me as a child also.
I have no doubt that the average JW is genuine. This does not make them right though.
@MadCornishBiker Said That is covered by the above scriptures really, but the main point is that only one organisation can be, and that organisation has to be one that lives and works in greater harmony than any other,that strives as a body to be "one" with Jehovah, just as Jesus prayed to his Father his followers would be. As in John 17:11-14 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me,
in order that they may be one just as we are. 12 When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am speaking these things in the world in order that they may have my joy in themselves to the full. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."
Clearly, we read that differently. I would argue that Christians are one in the sense of following Christ, not one in the sense of belonging to one church.
Christ says that where two or more are gathered in his name, he will be there in the midst of them. He does not even hint that they are required to belong to one church or another. They are to follow him, not a church organisation.
@MadCornishBiker Said [...] Do you think holding past mistakes against someone fits anywhere in that group of Christian fruitage? If Christ held past mistakes against any of us, there would be no JW's, nor would there be anyone to teach the resurrected ones when they are brought back from the grave. In short, there would be no hope for any of us, and no pint in Jesus sacrifice. By doing what you do you "impale the Christ anew". I know God has forgiven them for past mistakes, just as I know He has forgiven me, and my mistakes were far more serious than any they made. I can't say I have managed all of the errors in this list, but far too many of them anyway.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."
Even if God had, at the time, considered what Russell did as a form of idolatry, as you apparently do, that comes under that list of things people can be forgiven if they turn their back on them, as Russell did, and the JWs have with their mistakes.
Here at least in part, we find a point of agreement. If we were expected to be perfect, then, there is no hope for any of us. Whether Christian or not, perfection is a thing of which we are incapable, as Paul says in Romans, and John in 1 John.
The problem with the JWs that I have in this regard is that they call Christians liars, apostates, wicked, servants of Satan etc., then cry foul when we point out their list of errors and forays into paganism.
@MadCornishBiker Said The bible talks about the true Christian congregation as the source of the waters of life. Pull away from the source of those waters of life and you either die of thirst (spiritually) or you take on boards the wormwood of Apostate Christianity as you have. So yes. What Russell said is true, since the literature produced by the JWs is the source of all spiritual food, which comes from the bible.
So, people cannot be led to truth through reading the bible? They require JW interpretive texts to assist them?
Is this not following the doctrines of men?
@MadCornishBiker Said If he did indeed deliberately lie then no it would not be a good thing, but I very seriously doubt that he did, however again that is past and is between him and Jehovah now so it is none of our business. Without definitive evidence that it was not only wrong but deliberately so,and intended to deceive, I shall not judge what I do not know about. Should you? Do you know what was going through his mind at the time? I seriously doubt it. I suspect that cone again you are listening to too many Apostate lies. One thing becoming a JW taught me, which I hadn't learned on my own, was how to forgive past mistakes in others so that mine can be forgiven also.
On Russell's pyramid reading errors, his sin is not one I can forgive (by this I mean, this sin has nothing to do with me, so my forgiveness is not needed or required. It has nothing to do with me). Was it Paul who told people to consider the ways of church leaders? I have considered the way of the JWs and find them dubious.
@MadCornishBiker Said No they have not proved wrong on everything that can be proved. 1914 is not wrong, nor was it. Only some of their ideas of the significance of it were wrong. It was and is still the approximate date of the founding of God's kingdom in the Heavens. They just compressed the time-scale of things after it in their understandable impatience.
Well, this is fair enough in a way, I suppose. The fact that not everyone alive in 1914 is now dead means that it has not proven wrong, however, this is not the same as saying it is proven right.
However, even if it turns out that this world system *does* end soon, this does not prove the JWs right either. Again, I can say, "The world will end before this generation passes away," leaving a 120 year odd window for it to happen. It will hardly prove conclusive if in fact this turns out to be correct, will it?
@MadCornishBiker Said The brothers didn't actually say that most of those dates would be when Armageddon happened, though they did feel that 1918 was a probable date because WWI was so catastrophic in comparison to anything that had happened before they felt it may have been a part of Armageddon.
Actually, this is false. The JWs said this system would end a few times at X date, but it did not happen.
@MadCornishBiker Said To understand that you have to understand just how totally different from anything that had ever gone before WWI was. In the circumstances, and with the hope they had in mind it is hardly surprising that they got a little carried away. I wonder how you would have felt at the time? I am not sure I would not have been very tempted to go the same way. Do you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of these ones to help understand them? Somehow I wouldn't imagine that you do, you don't strike me as having that much empathy.
My career is based on empathy, as I help kids from difficult situations to see themselves and life a bit differently. So far, I have been pretty successful. Doing it requires quite a lot of empathy and patience etc. I am not a great teacher necessarily, but I manage to help most of the kids I work with.
As to empathising with the JWs - I have said before that I believe they are genuine. And yes, I can understand them getting caught up in the events of the time. Russell even spoke of the battle between capital and labour in his book about end-times and pyramids - I can understand that too. I am a history teacher
It is not that they were wrong that bothers me. I have my idea (shared with many others) about how to interpret what is happening now. However, I also allow for the distinct possibility that I am wrong. I accept that I will be wrong in many things, but, maybe I will prove totally wrong
On this, time will tell.
@MadCornishBiker Said If you cannot accept my explanation by now, you never will. Not only do the JWs say that all who teach pagan doctrine are Apostates, so does the bible. The trinity is,and always was, a pagan teaching.
No, I am not asking about the trinity. I am specifically asking you to point out where in that online anti-trinity pamphlet the JWs call the anti-Nicene fathers apostate. The JW text quotes these early church fathers as though they all repudiate the trinity doctrine, however, they all support that doctrine.
I am saying that the JWs lied by presenting these people as early Christians that denied the trinity doctrine.
And, I am asking you to prove me wrong, by showing me where in that pamphlet the JWs refer to these men as apostates.
@MadCornishBiker Said Yes Christians do, Apostates who teach the trinity according to the conditions of their membership of the World Council of Churches don't. They follow the Athanasian Creed and have no choice but to do so. That creed teaches that they are one God, which is not the same as being different, nor could it be. It defies logic and reason.
All this shows is a failure to understand the trinity. Christ as God is not God the Father. They share the same essence, but perform different roles. I am not sure why that is hard to understand.
@MadCornishBiker Said Of course it is the meaning you find, because you have absolutely no desire to listen to what the bible actual says, unless it agrees with you. Firstborn does not mean pre-eminent and cannot reasonably be twisted to do so. It means precisely that which it says, born first.
Regarding Christ being created; John 1:3 All things came into existence through [Jesus], and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
Now, is this statement true or false?
On the meaning of "firstborn" see, for example, Psalm 89:19 At that time [Jehovah] spoke in a vision to your loyal ones, And you proceeded to say: “I have placed help upon a mighty one; I have exalted a chosen one from among the people [...] 27 Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.
This part of psalm 89 is speaking of king David (although it is fair to say that it has Messianic overtones). However, this clearly shows that "firstborn" does not merely mean the first born, but "preeminence."
Mar 16, 2012 @ 12:36:00
