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chaski On September 27, 2021
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#61New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 14:33:25
@chaski Said


PPS
I don’t care if you believe me or not. OBL had been dead for 28 years.




My bad... typographical error... 18 years.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#62New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 14:56:59
@chaski Said

Afghanistan… the graveyard of empires… from Alexander the Great to the USA… it has never been conquered… the effort was futile from day 1.

PS
OBL was killed in 2003, so the mission was accomplished. We should have left back then.

PPS
I don’t care if you believe me or not. OBL had been dead for 28 years.

Fact.



If “OBL” is referring to Osama bin Laden, he was actually killed ten years ago in 2011 in Pakistan. The war in Afghanistan was more in response to the ruling Taliban who were harboring the likes of him and others, although the hunt for Osama was certainly part of it. We didn’t know where Osama was until 2010.

Whether or not the purpose of the war in Afghanistan served its purpose in keeping a lid on the Taliban is yet to be seen.

But one thing that can be predicted here in almost certainty will be the 180 degree turn by members of the GOP in criticizing Biden for the pullout.
chaski On September 27, 2021
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#63New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 15:57:05
@Leon Said

If “OBL” is referring to Osama bin Laden, he was actually killed ten years ago in 2011 in Pakistan.


Incorrect.

Even in the fun movie “Zero Dark Thirty” when “he” was killed his wife said, “he isn’t who you think he is” or some similar phrase.

That was not artistic license, but rather a real part of the events that night in Pakistan.

In any case the real killing of OBL was in 2003, and was kept secret for a variety of reasons…

But you don’t have to believe me.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#64New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 16:03:25
@chaski Said

Incorrect.

Even in the fun movie “Zero Dark Thirty” when “he” was killed his wife said, “he isn’t who you think he is” or some similar phrase.

That was not artistic license, but rather a real part of the events that night in Pakistan.

In any case the real killing of OBL was in 2003, and was kept secret for a variety of reasons…

But you don’t have to believe me.


I don’t. But wow, didn’t know you were into any conspiracy theories. So I thought maybe you just had your facts mixed up or something.

Interesting.
mrmhead On 32 minutes ago




NE, Ohio
#65New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 16:55:25
I had not heard that about OBL either.

I heard that some didn't believe he was killed in 2011, but I hadn't heard an alternative other than implied he was still alive somewhere.
chaski On September 27, 2021
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#66New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 17:02:35
@Leon Said

I don’t. But wow, didn’t know you were into any conspiracy theories. So I thought maybe you just had your facts mixed up or something.

Interesting.



I don’t see a “conspiracy theory“ at play here.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#67New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 17:14:57
@chaski Said

I don’t see a “conspiracy theory“ at play here.


This statement is uttered in various ways by all those who believe in one of course.

Wikipedia, who dates his death in 2011, labels it as such.

Speaking of which, I’m curious how do you explain away each of these three positive ID methods conducted, among many others (including those family members present at the raid who IDed him), taken from the same article:

“U.S. forces used multiple methods to positively identify the body of Osama bin Laden:

“Facial recognition software: A photograph transmitted by the SEALs to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, for facial recognition analysis yielded a 90 to 95 percent likely match.

“DNA testing: The Associated Press and The New York Times reported that bin Laden's body could be identified by DNA testing using tissue and blood samples taken from his sister who had died of brain cancer. ABC News stated, "Two samples were taken from bin Laden: one of these DNA samples was analyzed, and information was sent electronically back to Washington, D.C., from Bagram. Someone else from Afghanistan is physically bringing back a sample." military medic took bone marrow and swabs from the body to use for the DNA testing. According to a senior U.S. Department of Defense official: DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) analysis conducted separately by Department of Defense and CIA labs has positively identified Osama bin Laden. DNA samples collected from his body were compared to a comprehensive DNA profile derived from bin Laden's large extended family. Based on that analysis, the DNA is unquestionably his. The probability of a mistaken identity on the basis of this analysis is approximately one in 11.8 quadrillion.

“Inference: Per the same DoD official, from the initial review of the materials removed from the Abbottabad compound the Department "assessed that much of this information, including personal correspondence between Osama bin Laden and others, as well as some of the video footage ... would only have been in his possession.”
chaski On September 27, 2021
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#68New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 18:58:33
@Leon Said

Wikipedia, who dates his death in 2011, labels it as such.


Well that is some pretty strong evidence.

@Leon Said

“Facial recognition software: A photograph transmitted by the SEALs to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, for facial recognition analysis yielded a 90 to 95 percent likely match.


Yes... He was shot in the face. According to one Navy SEAL, "'I split his face with one bullet". So a photo of a split face was 90 to 95% accurate.

OBL was known to use other men who looked like him (many world leaders have done that... there is no shortage of President W. Bush look-a-likes).

So, this facial recognition of a split face is not proof.


@Leon Said

DNA samples collected from his body were compared to a comprehensive DNA profile derived from bin Laden's large extended family...


So the man killed was apparently related to the large extended family bin Laden family.


@Leon Said

“Inference... from the initial review.... would only have been in his possession.”


Interesting. My dad had a lot of my mom's information, including personal correspondence between my mom and others, as well as some of the video footage ... which would only have been in her possession... until she died, at which point said material ended up in my dad's possession for the next 12 years.
Na On about 3 hours ago




, Florida
#69New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 19:16:38
Is like Santa Claus come down the chimney. First I'm giving up cookies and milk and then comes the part where all of my socks are filled with gold coins. Sometimes being an orphan has perks.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#70New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 20:10:07
@chaski Said

Well that is some pretty strong evidence.

While they are certainly not research-based peer review literature, usually Wikipedia is pretty reliable. Either way, I’ll pick them over an single internet dude, no offense.

@chaski Said


Yes... He was shot in the face. According to one Navy SEAL, "'I split his face with one bullet". So a photo of a split face was 90 to 95% accurate.

OBL was known to use other men who looked like him (many world leaders have done that... there is no shortage of President W. Bush look-a-likes).

So, this facial recognition of a split face is not proof.




So the man killed was apparently related to the large extended family bin Laden family.


I’m pretty sure these factors were taken into account. These methods and the resultive conclusions are far more laborious and comprehensive than anything you or I as dime store philosophers could come up with, especially without the actual evidence and equipment used on hand. If these professionals with possession of the evidence conclude that it is OBL with 90-95% to 1 quadrillionth despite those factors you mention, I’ll take their word for it. Who are we to argue?

It’s the very nature of conspiracy theorists to decide they are smarter than the experts.

@chaski Said


Interesting. My dad had a lot of my mom's information, including personal correspondence between my mom and others, as well as some of the video footage ... which would only have been in her possession... until she died, at which point said material ended up in my dad's possession for the next 12 years.

Fair enough. I’m not going to waste time on this one. Just wanted to throw it out there.

Anyhow, so let’s see YOUR proof then.

If it is just all from testimony, then why pick and choose on that (note in the earlier post, I also included such)? Where is the actual evidence, proof, backing it up?
chaski On September 27, 2021
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#71New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 20:30:39
@Leon Said


Anyhow, so let’s see YOUR proof then.




As I stated, I don't care if anyone here on TFS believes me.

PS

> It has nothing to do with the myth that OBL had health/kidney problems.

> The Navy SEALS had nothing to do with it.

> Oh... and I do not think that there was a conspiracy by the Obama Admin, the CIA, or anyone else to pretend like they killed OBL. They likely believe that they did... the CIA & DoD and SEALS built their assessment and narrative around what they wanted to believe. They are honest, just mistaken.

> Bush and Cheney know, but they committed to not making it public knowledge as they didn't want to give terrorists a Martyr and "holy day of war" (yes... that is a way over simplification of the dynamics...)

> If you want to figure out when it happened, look to the shift in Bush's rhetoric... from wanted dead of alive to no big deal, we'll get him eventually. The 1st interview of Bush where he made that shift... put the death roughly 2 weeks before that.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#72New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 21:42:56
@chaski Said

As I stated, I don't care if anyone here on TFS believes me.


Yes, I know. I was just interested in what got you thinking the way you do.

@chaski Said


> Oh... and I do not think that there was a conspiracy by the Obama Admin, the CIA, or anyone else to pretend like they killed OBL. They likely believe that they did... the CIA & DoD and SEALS built their assessment and narrative around what they wanted to believe. They are honest, just mistaken.

> Bush and Cheney know, but they committed to not making it public knowledge as they didn't want to give terrorists a Martyr and "holy day of war" (yes... that is a way over simplification of the dynamics...)

> If you want to figure out when it happened, look to the shift in Bush's rhetoric... from wanted dead of alive to no big deal, we'll get him eventually. The 1st interview of Bush where he made that shift... put the death roughly 2 weeks before that.


This makes zero sense. If Bush knew, then that means people at the Pentagon who relayed the intel would have known. Which means that then Obama would have known, since those people would have a new commander in chief to answer to. And if only Bush and Cheney knew and not anybody at the Pentagon, then that would make even less sense from a purely logistical standpoint. It would make more sense if both Bush and Obama knew. Heck, I could even understand WHY they would want to hide it, for your stated tactical reasons in the middle of a war. But theoretical why doesn’t mean it actually happened of course, and it makes even less sense for Obama to conduct a charade in Pakistan if he knew it wasn’t OBL. Just come out and tell what happened back in 2003 at some point - the public would understand as well.

And to believe in ALL that because .... Bush’s choice of words or tone is different? And choosing that to base a particular belief on that, over the million other possible explanations for that, over everything else, over the evidence, over the testimony, over the face recognition, the DNA, not to mention over the obvious thing in what Bush said here: HE IS STILL SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING!

So I’m pretty sure there is more that got you in believing the way you do. You are smart, and are very guarded in the BS that gets spewed on here from various believers in crap, so I cannot believe it was just because you want to believe in something and cherry pick whatever points in that direction and ignore the bulk of evidence and experts, like conspiracy theorists typically do.

This is why I am curious in your particular case. If it were most people on here, I could care less. But I want to know what was presented to you that got you convinced. If it can convince you, then maybe it can open my eyes as well.

So present it here what changed your mind on it, exactly what you received.
Darkman666 On about 1 hour ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#73New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 21:44:37
best way to look at this:

if Osama bin Laden was still alive last 11 years, why haven't he surface to public yet?
chaski On September 27, 2021
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#74New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 22:58:30
@Leon Said


This makes zero sense. If Bush knew, then that means people at the Pentagon who relayed the intel would have known. Which means that then Obama would have known...


Not necessarily.

@Leon Said


And if only Bush and Cheney knew and not anybody at the Pentagon, then that would make even less sense from a purely logistical standpoint.


I don't remember every saying that only Bush and Cheney knew.

There are many classified things in the government that only a select group knows. Security clearance rules restrict the sharing of many things. There are things that happened in Vietnam that are classified and will remain classified until 2065.

@Leon Said

Bush and Obama knew.


You drive a hard bargain... maybe Obama does know.

@Leon Said


Obama to conduct a charade in Pakistan if he knew it wasn’t OBL.


Politicians have done far worse than that to get re-elected, or even just "look good".

@Leon Said

And to believe in ALL that because .... Bush’s choice of words or tone is different?


I don't believe it " because .... Bush’s choice of words or tone is different".

I believe it because it happened. It just so happens that once Bush knew OBL was dead, he stopped saying he wanted him found dead or alive. Kind of human nature... once you get what you want, you stop asking for it.

@Leon Said

So I’m pretty sure there is more that got you in believing the way you do.


There is.

@Leon Said

So present it here what changed your mind on it, exactly what you received.


My mind on the topic never changed, though I do confess to giving Obama credit here on TFS a few times in order to mess with certain gullible conservatives and 21st Century Republicans.
Leon On September 25, 2021




San Diego, California
#75New Post! Jul 09, 2021 @ 23:08:51
@chaski Said


There is.



Waiting for it then. Go ahead and convince me.

@chaski Said


My mind on the topic never changed.


When did you believe he died in 2003? What prompted you to believe this at that point?

That is what I want.
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