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Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

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GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#16New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:01:26
@darkman666 Said

it would a different concept, if adam and even saw the tree of knowledge, and didn't think about it. they saw the snake and apple.

just then, for no reason, just decide to leave eden, without care in the world. start a new life!


A good thing or none of us would be here. Right?

I did not see you say knowledge was good.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#17New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:02:58
@4d4m Said

I can't remember who said. "until one becomes enlightened one cannot be truly good or evil."


Many lies have been said over time.

New science shows how wrong that statement is.

We are born with a moral code.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#18New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:10:38
@dookie Said

The question does have resonance! No real wish to "return" but thought this worth posting.....

At one level it is a question of whether the knowledge of good and evil is essential or comes about only as a result of some unnecessary "fall". Which suggests the divisions in Christianity between the conservative/fundamentalists and those, more liberal perhaps, who rejoice in, and speak of, the "happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer." Again, there are some who would suggest we need to return to a state of innocence prior to any "fall", while others recognise the value in "passing through" this world of opposites. For me, this latter view is necessary for any genuine and satisfying theodicy.

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time"

Reflecting upon T. S. Eliot's words above, a simple return to innocence implies that we still would not "know" our "place" at all. Experience, the knowledge of good and evil, is necessary if the "being" of God is to be shared/given to us.

Anyway, from my own understanding, now, as a non-theist of what could be called "eastern perspectives", the journey itself is home. The zen master Dogen speaks of the "circle of the way" where every individual moment is complete in itself yet, nevertheless, there is a movement towards Buddha. Samsara and nirvana are "one" and this world is therefore not betrayed for some imagined "other".


Hope you are all keeping safe!


The god religions have tried to dumb down their sheeple, so perhaps they are trying to keep adults thinking like children.

The problem with A & E not eating of knowledge, is that they would never reproduce to make us.

The myth would have stalled.

Regards
DL
darkman666 On 32 minutes ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#19New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:11:41
@GreatestIam2 Said

A good thing or none of us would be here. Right?

I did not see you say knowledge was good.

Regards
DL



knowledge is what perceive, it is to be. knowledge is taught by a lesson. maybe the apple was a lesson, maybe adam had to learn from the lesson, if he did. knowledge is good or bad, who the knowledge is for. not, weather good or bad, it is a different to each one of us.
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#20New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:12:25
@4d4m Said

From the Tanakh, Bereis*** (Genesis) chap 2

16 And HaShem G-d commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In Bereis*** chap 3
4 And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die;

Well, as we know, they did eat the fruit' and they did not die. hmm?
So the serpent was cursed and Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden


So god took the punishment due him for his lie, and gave it to us.

What a prick.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#21New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 14:19:09
@dookie Said

Maybe the problem is that many, particularly in the West, see good and evil as eternal opposites, and "God" is identified with the good. Thus dualism. Another way of being and understanding is to see good and evil as both arising from the "one", a "one" that is "beyond" both, or as is sometimes said, "empty".

Some Christian mystics, particularly Meister Eckhart, seem to approach such an "eastern" understanding, by speaking of a Godhead beyond god. "I pray to God to rid me of God" says Eckhart.

Anyway, just waffling and musing. The Lockdown was always going to get me in the end.


God above god is a Gnostic Christian idea. I am not sure if they/we were the first but they certainly gained a lot of support.

Regards
DL
dookie On about 8 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#22New Post! Jun 18, 2020 @ 16:27:22
@GreatestIam2 Said

God above god is a Gnostic Christian idea. I am not sure if they/we were the first but they certainly gained a lot of support.

Regards
DL


Reality-as-is tends to arise irrespective of what may or may not be "fed to the sheeple." It is for me the fertility of the earth itself, the natural healing power of creation ( the phenomenal world ), what zens call the liberative qualities of temporality and spatiality. The dice are loaded in our favour.

As the Good Book says "For the earth brings forth fruit of herself" (St Mark's Gospel)
4d4m On about 6 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#23New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 02:19:34
@GreatestIam2 Said

Many lies have been said over time.

New science shows how wrong that statement is.

We are born with a moral code.

Regards
DL


Let me try to illustrate a point. New science does say that we are born with a moral code. This is based on research with toddlers and puppets. It's quite interesting and kick to watch. Those lil buggers are cute. But, there are those who seem to have no moral code. Mass murderers for instance, who torture animals when they are children.

Now, suppose for the sake of argument that reincarnation is real. Suppose for the sake of argument there are those who can program/brainwash people during their time between lifetimes. That would blow the whole "born with a moral code" hypothesis away. We would then have to figure out whether people were returning with a moral code that was artificially planted. Or, possibly a moral code that was artificially reinforced by churches and government leaders over repeated lifetimes. That would mean the moral code they are born with may be a false moral code. By the same token the psychopaths could have been programmed between lifetimes. Or, perhaps, they have learned to be psychopaths over repeated lifetimes; having been rewarded for such behavior.

This is all hypothetical but, you see my point. If this was true the "modern science" would be more like caveman science. The lack of information about where souls are really coming from clouds the scientific conclusion.

Therefore. Is the knowledge of good and evil good or evil? It is a thing, knowledge. It is only good or evil when those who know it use it for good or evil.
chaski On about 3 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#24New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 02:49:59
@4d4m Said

New science does say that we are born with a moral code.


Correction: Some scientific studies suggest that there might be what we would like to describe as a "moral code".

Of course it could just be a instinct to protect the herd/pack/tribe/species...

Etc.
dookie On about 8 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#25New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 11:12:23
On the themes raised by the questions here, there is an essay contained in Thomas Merton's book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" called "Wisdom in Emptiness". In this essay Merton and the "zen man" D T Suzuki exchange views on the "fall", on "knowledge" (of the opposites) and of the return to "innocence". All good stuff if you have a genuine interest, and like that sort of thing; this whether you agree or not with any conclusions - not that many conclusions are actually reached!

Suzuki equates"knowledge" with "ignorance" which is quite astonishing to begin with. "Wisdom" is equated with "innocence".

As I understand it, from reflection and the living of twenty years or so since first dipping into the essay, if our judgement - and acting - upon the opposites (" good" and "evil" ) is unreflective, a product of our inevitable conditioning, it is in effect ignorance. At another level, equating "god" with one side, the "good", is simply another part of this. Seeking to emulate, even please, our "god" we can often drift further from Reality irrespective of our own perception of being "sanctified".

From a Buddhist perspective, this all involves "anatta" - not self - in as much as if we are identifying with a hard nugget of selfhood and seeking to "perfect" it by chasing one side of the opposites, we will inevitably remain in the wheel of samsara.

Instead we should seek to be "nothing" and thus blend with "emptiness", the negative path of Christian mysticism. A path more of grace and surrender rather than assertion and striving. Beneath what could be called the exoteric side of the "religions" is the esoteric - this latter not for the "wise" or "clever", as far more is in play.

When such a "ground" of emptiness is reached, then we can play our part in the world of diversification, each moment one of spontaneous expression, by word or deed, "one" with a true Good, or the Godhead beyond god. We can truly "love God and do what we will".
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#26New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 17:53:27
@dookie Said

Reality-as-is tends to arise irrespective of what may or may not be "fed to the sheeple." It is for me the fertility of the earth itself, the natural healing power of creation ( the phenomenal world ), what zens call the liberative qualities of temporality and spatiality. The dice are loaded in our favour.

As the Good Book says "For the earth brings forth fruit of herself" (St Mark's Gospel)


We should all be putting nature and man above god.

We know nature is real and that imaginary gods that we invent are fiction.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#27New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 18:01:14
@4d4m Said

Let me try to illustrate a point. New science does say that we are born with a moral code. This is based on research with toddlers and puppets. It's quite interesting and kick to watch. Those lil buggers are cute. But, there are those who seem to have no moral code. Mass murderers for instance, who torture animals when they are children.

Now, suppose for the sake of argument that reincarnation is real. Suppose for the sake of argument there are those who can program/brainwash people during their time between lifetimes. That would blow the whole "born with a moral code" hypothesis away. We would then have to figure out whether people were returning with a moral code that was artificially planted. Or, possibly a moral code that was artificially reinforced by churches and government leaders over repeated lifetimes. That would mean the moral code they are born with may be a false moral code. By the same token the psychopaths could have been programmed between lifetimes. Or, perhaps, they have learned to be psychopaths over repeated lifetimes; having been rewarded for such behavior.

This is all hypothetical but, you see my point. If this was true the "modern science" would be more like caveman science. The lack of information about where souls are really coming from clouds the scientific conclusion.

Therefore. Is the knowledge of good and evil good or evil? It is a thing, knowledge. It is only good or evil when those who know it use it for good or evil.


Which is given to us by our DNA.

I do not disagree that there are some with defective DNA that would screw with their instincts and views of good and evil, but they are not the norm.

We default so much to doing good to each other instead of evil that evolutionists are scratching their heads in dithering out why we are so good.

The research I know of was with babies and not toddlers, although our kindness does last into kids that are older.

Cooperation is our default position and that is our be good to others side.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#28New Post! Jun 19, 2020 @ 18:09:59
@dookie Said



Instead we should seek to be "nothing" and thus blend with "emptiness", the negative path of Christian mysticism. A path more of grace and surrender rather than assertion and striving. Beneath what could be called the exoteric side of the "religions" is the esoteric - this latter not for the "wise" or "clever", as far more is in play.



I see that in both esoteric and exoteric study of all ideologies.

Regards
DL
dookie On about 8 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#29New Post! Jun 20, 2020 @ 08:31:28
@GreatestIam2 Said

I see that in both esoteric and exoteric study of all ideologies.

Regards
DL


Ideally there should be a unbroken line of continuity within any great Faith system between its exoteric and esoteric expressions. Sadly, for many reasons, such is not the case and expressions arise that could be called "fundamentalist", so called "only ways", that draw in the fearful and faithless - and it seems these expressions capture the headlines and provide the platform for those such as Richard Dawkins to deride "religion" in general.

While personally I regret that more people do not recognise the great repository of wisdom held within the great Faiths of the world, I am also able to recognise the "natural healing power of temporality and spaciality" that arises in so many secular ways that are not an explicit part of any faith. From "On The Road", "Black Elk Speaks" to "Finnegans Wake", from a mother's love for her child to any other spontaneous act of empathy and compassion; if a Christian, these can all be recognised as "the salvific work of Christ", the Living Word which should - but alas often does not - follow from the Word as Text.

"I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world,
like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere.
Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior,
observers of precepts, violators of precepts,
those fully endowed with proper demeanor,
those not fully endowed,
those of correct views, of erroneous views,
of keen capacity, of dull capacity -
I cause the Dharma rain to rain on all equally,
never lax or neglectful.
When all the various living beings
hear my Law,
they receive it according to their power,
dwelling in their different environments.....
..The Law of the Buddhas
is constantly of a single flavour,
causing the many worlds
to attain full satisfaction everywhere;
by practicing gradually and stage by stage,
all beings can gain the fruits of the way"

(Parable of the Dharma Rain, from The Lotus Sutra of Mahayana Buddhism)
GreatestIam2 On about 8 hours ago




Ottawa, Canada
#30New Post! Jun 20, 2020 @ 16:38:33
@dookie Said


While personally I regret that more people do not recognise the great repository of wisdom held within the great Faiths of the world,


Again, nicely put.

Those of faith will not seek that wisdom, as, if we are talking the mainstream god religions, their genocidal satanic god is good enough for them.

They are close to Satan worship.

Regards
DL
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