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Is the Dem's Big Tent Crushing Them?

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nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#1New Post! May 19, 2019 @ 07:34:58
Looking at the lineup for the Democratic primary fight, I can't help but be struck by something. The Democratic Party's Big Tent approach has created a very wide range of opinions within the party. Others on here have noted the meandering and lackluster nature of the party and that their unifying ideals are not really all that unifying. I'm starting to get the impression that the Big Tent is beginning to crush them and that unless they can unify their support around certain ideals, then the party may face the threat of a fracture, much like the one the Republican Party is going through right now.
Leon On about 4 hours ago




San Diego, California
#2New Post! May 19, 2019 @ 07:47:49
Hmm, I take this with a grain of salt for now. Check back in a year and let’s see if things haven’t coalesced around a candidate or two and certain issue solutions haven’t gained traction. It’s way too early to say the party is fracturing. In fact, this many ideas this early is a good thing, as it gets people into a healthy discussion of possible solutions.

Besides, I think everyone is more closer than it appears. It’s Trump that is vastly different in philosophy than the DNC field, not Biden.

You’ll see.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#3New Post! May 20, 2019 @ 08:44:52
@Leon Said

Hmm, I take this with a grain of salt for now. Check back in a year and let’s see if things haven’t coalesced around a candidate or two and certain issue solutions haven’t gained traction. It’s way too early to say the party is fracturing. In fact, this many ideas this early is a good thing, as it gets people into a healthy discussion of possible solutions.

Besides, I think everyone is more closer than it appears. It’s Trump that is vastly different in philosophy than the DNC field, not Biden.

You’ll see.


I'm just saying that the Dems risk a fracture, not that they necessarily will. On another note, relying on Trump animosity to coalesce the Dems platform is not exactly a sound strategy. Many ideas are only good if the party can pull itself together. Differences can be wonderful chances to learn and grow, but just as often they can cause a divide. The veterans and the fresh blood are already clashing, and if you need to pull rank to end a discussion then I wouldn't characterize it as a very fruitful discussion.

Let's not forget and dismiss the last time election time rolled around and the Dem's had a falling out in their own ranks. The Bernie backlash was pretty damaging, and that was just with one candidate. I wonderr what would happen if an entire cornucopia of diehards pulling for different candidates were to crop up.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#4New Post! May 20, 2019 @ 14:59:01
@nooneinparticular Said

Looking at the lineup for the Democratic primary fight, I can't help but be struck by something. The Democratic Party's Big Tent approach has created a very wide range of opinions within the party.



The republicans did it in the run up to the 2016 election; 17 candidates at one point.

Granted the differences between most probably weren't quite as varied as the Democrat field for 2020.

@nooneinparticular Said

Others on here have noted the meandering and lackluster nature of the party and that their unifying ideals are not really all that unifying. ...the party may face the threat of a fracture, much like the one the Republican Party is going through right now.


The Dems are survivors of "fracture"... they are like an ugly patchwork quilt... the comfort it gives is based on all the little pieces is pulls together into one thing to make us feel cozy.


The best option, IMO, that won't happen any time soon, is for the centrist Dems & centrist Reps to break from their parties and start at third party based on rational thought.

The Dems & Reps, however, are addicted to their most extreme voters.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#5New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 10:38:01
@chaski Said

The republicans did it in the run up to the 2016 election; 17 candidates at one point.

Granted the differences between most probably weren't quite as varied as the Democrat field for 2020.



The Dems are survivors of "fracture"... they are like an ugly patchwork quilt... the comfort it gives is based on all the little pieces is pulls together into one thing to make us feel cozy.


The best option, IMO, that won't happen any time soon, is for the centrist Dems & centrist Reps to break from their parties and start at third party based on rational thought.

The Dems & Reps, however, are addicted to their most extreme voters.


Honestly, I'd say they're more afraid of the reprisals from their own parties and constituents then any sort of addiction to blind praise. We've seen Green and Libertarian get their collective asses handed to them for years by the 'big boys in town'. A collective break away would probably see the two parties independently air as much dirty laundry as they can over the 'defectors'.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#6New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 14:19:22
@nooneinparticular Said

Honestly, I'd say they're more afraid of the reprisals from their own parties and constituents then any sort of addiction to blind praise. We've seen Green and Libertarian get their collective asses handed to them for years by the 'big boys in town'. A collective break away would probably see the two parties independently air as much dirty laundry as they can over the 'defectors'.



I think that the best option for a multi party system would be for the Democrat party to break up into two or three parties.

A marginally left leaning but fiscally conservative centrist party might attract center leaning Republicans. The more left leaning party or two might attract people from the Green party.... etc etc...

The Republicans won't break apart on their own. They will just keep moving more and more to the right.
Leon On about 4 hours ago




San Diego, California
#7New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 14:57:23
@chaski Said

I think that the best option for a multi party system would be for the Democrat party to break up into two or three parties.


Dear god no.

We need a unified coalition to beat Trump.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#8New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 16:04:19
@Leon Said

Dear god no.

We need a unified coalition to beat Trump.


And that is why we have a two party system.

But really, what the Democrats need to "beat" Trump, is to maintain control over the H.R. and gain control of the Senate.

At that point Trump's presidency becomes meaningless, unless he starts cooperating with Congress. As long as the Republicans control the Senate, Trump's sole purpose (from a Republican perspective) will continue >>> appointing judges.
Leon On about 4 hours ago




San Diego, California
#9New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 16:21:05
@chaski Said

And that is why we have a two party system.

But really, what the Democrats need to "beat" Trump, is to maintain control over the H.R. and gain control of the Senate.

At that point Trump's presidency becomes meaningless, unless he starts cooperating with Congress. As long as the Republicans control the Senate, Trump's sole purpose (from a Republican perspective) will continue >>> appointing judges.


Well the reason why we need to beat Trump isn’t so much him at this point, but what we need to get done that won’t get done with him in charge. In other words, addressing climate change, our health care crisis, election reform, and other urgent matters. None of that occurs if Trump is in office, even if the Dems control both chambers.

And while I, too, despise the two party system, fact remains that a fractured Democratic Party = Trump winning the election. So I’d rather go with the lesser of two evils.

And after we have legislation on the urgent matters, then we can talk about splitting up parties.

I do realize that if we don’t control the Senate, none of it occurs either, but if Trump remains, that’s irrelevant anyways. At least we have another good chance at chipping away at the Senate in 2022, while a Dem is still in the Oval Office.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#10New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 16:48:31
FPTP promotes a two party system. I could have sworn at least one of you have said this before. Split in as many different orientations as you like, it doesn't change that fact. The only way I see a split towards a centerist stance working is if it forces out one of the two giants in the process, otherwise it will be crushed.

Funnily enough, Leon's reaction supports that thinking. He said that the Dems must be united in order to win control of government. Ironically that also implies that the Dems can only beat the Republicans united. If they fracture after they win, well that just creates a prime opportunity for the Republicans to make a resurgence, no? Then we go back to where we started.
Leon On about 4 hours ago




San Diego, California
#11New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 18:47:23
@nooneinparticular Said

FPTP promotes a two party system. I could have sworn at least one of you have said this before. Split in as many different orientations as you like, it doesn't change that fact. The only way I see a split towards a centerist stance working is if it forces out one of the two giants in the process, otherwise it will be crushed.

Funnily enough, Leon's reaction supports that thinking. He said that the Dems must be united in order to win control of government. Ironically that also implies that the Dems can only beat the Republicans united. If they fracture after they win, well that just creates a prime opportunity for the Republicans to make a resurgence, no? Then we go back to where we started.


Yes, I mentioned that before in another thread. Which is why any split won’t actually result in 3 viable parties, but just hand the election over to the other party.

And yes, any legislation can overturn previous legislation. But it is much harder to overturn socialist-based legislation which provides for the people once it is enacted. Just look at Social Security, Medicare, or the UK’s NHS, each of which the opposing side would never dream of overturning at this point.

In fact that’s exactly what the GOP is most fearful of and why they don’t even want to give it a chance.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#12New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 19:41:53
@Leon Said

Yes, I mentioned that before in another thread. Which is why any split won’t actually result in 3 viable parties, but just hand the election over to the other party.

And yes, any legislation can overturn previous legislation. But it is much harder to overturn socialist-based legislation which provides for the people once it is enacted. Just look at Social Security, Medicare, or the UK’s NHS, each of which the opposing side would never dream of overturning at this point.

In fact that’s exactly what the GOP is most fearful of and why they don’t even want to give it a chance.


Please. All they'd have to do is promise not to touch it and it wouldn't matter like they do with medicare and SS, or if it's new just call it some flavor of socialist garbage and then do everything they can to tank it. When it hits their constituents, all they have to do is point at it and go 'See? It's Socialist garbage that doesn't help at all, Let's get rid of it' and the constituency is clamoring to do the politicians job for them.

Besides we are forgetting one key feature of the ever more right Republican party. They have created this insular narrative in which everything is part of a conspiracy against them and the people they believe are working for them. Remember how there was a massive uproar with the Right over repealing and replacing Obamacare? Remember how they justified not removing or replacing it? They blamed 'the establishment' for making it impossible to get rid of and declared they would defund it instead and their base accepted that gladly. They've been preparing this narrative ever since the Right started embracing the existence of the shadow government. Anything the mouthpieces they trust say is a plot from the establishment is accepted and the lack of evidence just proves its existence. Nothing can disprove the existence of the shadow government to these people, and the more 'right' predictions and news the mouthpieces make about it, the more trusted they become.

The Right is not scared of benefit programs catching on. They now have the ability to redfine reality at will to their constituents.
chaski On about 2 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#13New Post! May 23, 2019 @ 19:52:18
@Leon Said

Well the reason why we need to beat Trump isn’t so much him at this point, but what we need to get done that won’t get done with him in charge. I



Congress could override Trump... if Congress worked together: pass legislation, if vetoed override the veto.

@Leon Said

a fractured Democratic Party = Trump winning the election. So I’d rather go with the lesser of two evils.


You know my opinion on that , Trump is going to win anyway.

And, if someone like Bernie gets elected.. nothing will really get done. If the Reps hold the Senate, Bernie wouldn't get anything done... even if the Dems got the majority, many don't like Bernie's platform so Bernie would have to compromise... in addition, Bernie doesn't have a large enough network of people to come in and fill the various Executive Branch position.... etc.... I could go on.... Bottom line, a Bernie presidency would likely assure a Republican wins office in 2024....especially if the economy tanks. In fact, if Bernie wins and the economy tanks, we could even see Trump back again in 2024.

Biden is the likely candidate. He could probably beat Trump. But Biden will at most be a one term president, which (especially if the economy tanks) points to a Republican in 2024.

Besides it will be 50 years before the damage Trump is doing is corrected... with luck only 25 years or so relative to the Supreme Court and other judges.

So... in my view.. the Democrat's only hope is not to beat Trump but rather to win majorities in the H.R. & Senate. It would be better for Trump to stay in office against a Democrat controlled congress, so when the economy does tank Trump gets the blame.

etc..
mrmhead On 54 minutes ago




NE, Ohio
#14New Post! May 24, 2019 @ 01:22:03
@chaski Said

Congress could override Trump... if Congress worked together: pass legislation, if vetoed override the veto.



You know my opinion on that , Trump is going to win anyway.

And, if someone like Bernie gets elected.. nothing will really get done. If the Reps hold the Senate, Bernie wouldn't get anything done... even if the Dems got the majority, many don't like Bernie's platform so Bernie would have to compromise... in addition, Bernie doesn't have a large enough network of people to come in and fill the various Executive Branch position.... etc.... I could go on.... Bottom line, a Bernie presidency would likely assure a Republican wins office in 2024....especially if the economy tanks. In fact, if Bernie wins and the economy tanks, we could even see Trump back again in 2024.

Biden is the likely candidate. He could probably beat Trump. But Biden will at most be a one term president, which (especially if the economy tanks) points to a Republican in 2024.

Besides it will be 50 years before the damage Trump is doing is corrected... with luck only 25 years or so relative to the Supreme Court and other judges.

So... in my view.. the Democrat's only hope is not to beat Trump but rather to win majorities in the H.R. & Senate. It would be better for Trump to stay in office against a Democrat controlled congress, so when the economy does tank Trump gets the blame.

etc..


.. I too think the economy will tank "soon" - as little as one, to maybe - if handled right - stretched to 5 years before it's really felt.

But I think trump has f***ed around just enough for the crash to happen in the next administration - whose ever it may be.
If he wanted to, he could accelerate it. And even his ignorance could accelerate the timeline.
Leon On about 4 hours ago




San Diego, California
#15New Post! May 24, 2019 @ 03:11:26
@chaski Said

Congress could override Trump... if Congress worked together: pass legislation, if vetoed override the veto.



You know my opinion on that , Trump is going to win anyway.

And, if someone like Bernie gets elected.. nothing will really get done. If the Reps hold the Senate, Bernie wouldn't get anything done... even if the Dems got the majority, many don't like Bernie's platform so Bernie would have to compromise... in addition, Bernie doesn't have a large enough network of people to come in and fill the various Executive Branch position.... etc.... I could go on.... Bottom line, a Bernie presidency would likely assure a Republican wins office in 2024....especially if the economy tanks. In fact, if Bernie wins and the economy tanks, we could even see Trump back again in 2024.

Biden is the likely candidate. He could probably beat Trump. But Biden will at most be a one term president, which (especially if the economy tanks) points to a Republican in 2024.

Besides it will be 50 years before the damage Trump is doing is corrected... with luck only 25 years or so relative to the Supreme Court and other judges.

So... in my view.. the Democrat's only hope is not to beat Trump but rather to win majorities in the H.R. & Senate. It would be better for Trump to stay in office against a Democrat controlled congress, so when the economy does tank Trump gets the blame.

etc..


So you want Trump to win. Interesting.

To override a Presidential veto, 67 votes would be needed in the Senate and a two thirds majority in the House. There is no way in hell we will get at least 15 or so Republicans to jump ship and side with the Democrats on any major piece of legislation, let alone go against a Republican President on a veto. Especially on things like climate change or health care.

Nor will the Senate have a DNC majority if Trump is re-elected, period. If Trump is re-elected, that would mean enough GOP voters showed up at the polls to do so and not enough Democratic voters showed up, which, in turn, would mean that the Senate definitely won’t be able to flip enough seats to gain a majority - the party line vote was at near 90% in recent elections. And it’s already a long uphill battle for Democrats to flip the Senate in 2020 as it is. While, yes, there are plenty more GOP seats up for election than DNC seats, only 3 are from non-red states (Maine, Colorado, and maybe Arizona). 4 are needed to flip the Senate if Trump wins.

So, sorry, my friend, no matter how you slice it, nothing will get done for another 4 years if Trump is re-elected, unless somehow miraculously the GOP also regains the House.

No, the best bet is for the DNC to win the Presidency and the Senate (then only 3 Senate seats would need to flip), and legislate with zeal for 2 years before your predicted crash fallout election occurs in 2022 (the mistake Obama made in not doing from 2008-2010). We have a slightly less margin of hope still alive even if the DNC only wins the Presidency and fails to flip the Senate, because at least the DNC President can scapegoat Mitch McConnell for not getting anything done and for your economic crash and take advantage of an easier 2022 Senate election in terms of flipping GOP seats than 2020. But that would require a more focused message campaign than what the DNC has shown to be able to do in the present.

Otherwise, it’s over. Trump in charge from 2021-2025 will irreparably ruin the country, ruin the middle class, and ruin our planet.
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