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Is needlessly sacrificing your child, as God did, child abuse and murder?

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GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#1New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 02:45:59
Is needlessly sacrificing your child, as God did, child abuse and murder?

Bishop Spong indicated that we Christians should not perceive God as a God who demands barbaric acts like human sacrifice to appease his sense of justice. He uses the term child abuse and I just call it more of what it would be if the myth was real; murder.

I say needlessly because God has no needs. He only has wants and no decent God would want to needlessly sacrifice his son.

If a Sacrifice were required, God would not send a boy to do a man’s job and he would be man enough to step up himself.

If you were to dare judge this issue or scenario of God, --- knowing that he planned to have Jesus sacrificed even before creating the potential for sin, would you find God criminally liable for child abuse and murder?

Regards
DL
cadiris On December 16, 2013

Deleted



Stirling, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 02:49:22
@GreatestIam2 Said

Is needlessly sacrificing your child, as God did, child abuse and murder?

Bishop Spong indicated that we Christians should not perceive God as a God who demands barbaric acts like human sacrifice to appease his sense of justice. He uses the term child abuse and I just call it more of what it would be if the myth was real; murder.

I say needlessly because God has no needs. He only has wants and no decent God would want to needlessly sacrifice his son.

If a Sacrifice were required, God would not send a boy to do a man’s job and he would be man enough to step up himself.

If you were to dare judge this issue or scenario of God, --- knowing that he planned to have Jesus sacrificed even before creating the potential for sin, would you find God criminally liable for child abuse and murder?

Regards
DL



Most Christians would answer that by telling you that Jesus was God. In other words, God paid the 'price'.
Cpat92 On May 16, 2021
It's all or nothing





Lauderhill, Florida
#3New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 03:13:14
Another irrelevant thread?
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 09:41:38
@Cpat92 Said

Another irrelevant thread?



Hi Pat, as I see it its as irrelevant as we want to make it. My own experience with many Christians, in life and on the net, is that they are scared witless of God and all "his" threatened punishments, and they cling to Jesus as some sort of protection.

They do not see, nor do they ever seem to grow into, the reality of grace that cadiris implies/alludes to above in this thread.

Much else follows, but enough for now.

All the best

NVIIIX1 On March 14, 2015

Banned



, Georgia
#5New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 11:58:35
@GreatestIam2 Said


I say needlessly because God has no needs. He only has wants and no decent God would want to needlessly sacrifice his son.


Your use of the word "need" is pushing beyond this notion that God is lacking nothing into a different thing as you complain about the sacrifice of Jesus. I don't see any description in the bible which calls Jesus' sacrifice needless.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#6New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 13:59:35
I was unaware that a 33 year old man was considered a child.
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#7New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 15:00:57
@cadiris Said

Most Christians would answer that by telling you that Jesus was God. In other words, God paid the 'price'.


Where is it written that God can sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own wrath?

Where does it say God can die?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#8New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 15:03:03
@Cpat92 Said

Another irrelevant thread?


Not to those who contemplate the immorality of the Christian foundations.

But go ahead and embrace the notions of it being good justice to punish the innocent and reward the guilty. That is good justice. To Christian fools.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#9New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 15:09:07
@NVIIIX1 Said

Your use of the word "need" is pushing beyond this notion that God is lacking nothing into a different thing as you complain about the sacrifice of Jesus. I don't see any description in the bible which calls Jesus' sacrifice needless.


Then look again for the first time.





THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts—as having died instead of us—as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not “forgiven,” for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins “through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25 ).

Regards
DL
cadiris On December 16, 2013

Deleted



Stirling, United Kingdom
#10New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 17:33:52
@GreatestIam2 Said

Where is it written that God can sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own wrath?

Where does it say God can die?

Regards
DL



The Bible is open to interpretation.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So it's up to each person to derive from it what they will.
Basically you make the Bible say whatever you want it too.

The bible is a book about God, but written by people who often make mistakes. Even now under the new covenant how many Christians still make mistakes?! So why do people find it too difficult to imagine that writers of the bible (under the Old covenant) got it wrong sometimes also? There are many contradictions in the Bible.
I mean you can find many passages saying that God does not want sacrifices of any kind, and many say He does...It's open for interpretation.

My view is that God is love...the force of love, the power of love, the all of love and St Paul gives this definition of love...

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

And as God IS love, you can change the words love above with the word 'God'. (God is patient, God is kind, God does not envy, God does not boast, God is not proud, God does not dishonor others, God is not self-seeking, God is not easily angered, God keeps no record of wrongs....etc etc.

Through personal experience of 'love' and it's power, that is my belief.

There are so many ins and outs to the sacrifice thing we would be here debating for months and I don't have the time for that.

If you are looking for answers on this, check out the universalism websites, they have a greater knowledge of the bible than your traditional Christians and a much more loving (or GODLY) approach.



https://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.html

Who Killed Jesus?

OK, here's a major point that deserves a new paragraph. Brace yourself because this might be very new to you. G-d didn't kill Jesus. We did. We've been taught G-d sent Yeshua to die. That's true. We've been taught this was the will of the Father. That is also true. But, it's man that killed Yeshua. Our ridiculous judicial system, our religious rules, our pompousness, our hardheartedness, our anger, killed Him. We drove the nails into Him and hung Him up; not G-d. G-d allowed Himself (or His agent) to be murdered by us to show us how much He loves us. He allowed us to torture and kill Him without missing a beat of showing how much He loved us. He broke our hard stubborn hearts and showed us the Way to salvation. We have to die (to ourselves) and be resurrected to experience the Kingdom of Heaven. Yeshua's death was the ultimate act that showed man just how wrong we had been about G-d. Our projections of His anger and disgust with us were just that, projecting our own anger and disgust on Him. The G-d and Father of Yeshua is the ultimate friend of sinners. G-d is not the one who demands blood. G-d is the one who gives blood ”I have given you the blood upon the altar (Leviticus 17:11).

Was Jesus' Death Necessary?

Someone on a message board just told me that I don't believe in the necessity of the cross, therefore, I am not a true Christian. I have never said I do not believe in the necessity of Yeshua's sacrifice. What I have said is I do not believe that G-d killed the innocent and submitted His Son to torment to pay a penalty for the sake of the guilty. I think this is a grossly unfair characterization of G-d. I do honor Yeshua's sacrifice and I'm glad that He did what He did to show us the heart of the Father. I think it was absolutely necessary, but not in a transactional sense. It was not necessary so that G-d could forgive. It was necessary to show us that G-d had already forgiven! I think what we witnessed was the ultimate in sacrifice (on the part of G-d in Yeshua freely giving of Himself) to show us a few things:

He was willing and able to accept us back home any time we were ready to return. G-d has never been far from us. It's that we perceive Him as far from us. The Kingdom of Heaven (really the Kingdom of G-d) is, and always has been at hand.
Yeshua showed us the metaphorical path in a very literal way. We have to be willing to die, to take up our cross and follow Him to be born again. All of these metaphors, He acted out on the cross.
Yeshua showed us how to give sacrificially in a big way. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friend (John 15:13)

FROM...
https://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.html
cadiris On December 16, 2013

Deleted



Stirling, United Kingdom
#11New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 17:38:07
I believe with God (who is love) the most loving answer is the right answer.

The rest is just...People...Talking gibberish.

If you know love you don't need a bible!
St Paul or Jesus never carried around a copy of the St James.
Neither did any of the prophets or disciples or apostles.

Yes even now under the new covenant, Christians could further 'elaborate' on the Bible (as they do) and get it wrong most of the time.

You should examine the ancient languages and get an idea of the 'vibe of the day' each part of the bible was written in if your looking for a better understanding of it.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#12New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 19:26:48
@GreatestIam2 Said

Where is it written that God can sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own wrath?

Where does it say God can die?

Regards
DL



Don't be such a literalist!


GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#13New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 20:05:13
@cadiris Said

The Bible is open to interpretation.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So it's up to each person to derive from it what they will.
Basically you make the Bible say whatever you want it too.

The bible is a book about God, but written by people who often make mistakes. Even now under the new covenant how many Christians still make mistakes?! So why do people find it too difficult to imagine that writers of the bible (under the Old covenant) got it wrong sometimes also? There are many contradictions in the Bible.
I mean you can find many passages saying that God does not want sacrifices of any kind, and many say He does...It's open for interpretation.

My view is that God is love...the force of love, the power of love, the all of love and St Paul gives this definition of love...

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

And as God IS love, you can change the words love above with the word 'God'. (God is patient, God is kind, God does not envy, God does not boast, God is not proud, God does not dishonor others, God is not self-seeking, God is not easily angered, God keeps no record of wrongs....etc etc.

Through personal experience of 'love' and it's power, that is my belief.

There are so many ins and outs to the sacrifice thing we would be here debating for months and I don't have the time for that.

If you are looking for answers on this, check out the universalism websites, they have a greater knowledge of the bible than your traditional Christians and a much more loving (or GODLY) approach.



https://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.html

Who Killed Jesus?

OK, here's a major point that deserves a new paragraph. Brace yourself because this might be very new to you. G-d didn't kill Jesus. We did. We've been taught G-d sent Yeshua to die. That's true. We've been taught this was the will of the Father. That is also true. But, it's man that killed Yeshua. Our ridiculous judicial system, our religious rules, our pompousness, our hardheartedness, our anger, killed Him. We drove the nails into Him and hung Him up; not G-d. G-d allowed Himself (or His agent) to be murdered by us to show us how much He loves us. He allowed us to torture and kill Him without missing a beat of showing how much He loved us. He broke our hard stubborn hearts and showed us the Way to salvation. We have to die (to ourselves) and be resurrected to experience the Kingdom of Heaven. Yeshua's death was the ultimate act that showed man just how wrong we had been about G-d. Our projections of His anger and disgust with us were just that, projecting our own anger and disgust on Him. The G-d and Father of Yeshua is the ultimate friend of sinners. G-d is not the one who demands blood. G-d is the one who gives blood ”I have given you the blood upon the altar (Leviticus 17:11).

Was Jesus' Death Necessary?

Someone on a message board just told me that I don't believe in the necessity of the cross, therefore, I am not a true Christian. I have never said I do not believe in the necessity of Yeshua's sacrifice. What I have said is I do not believe that G-d killed the innocent and submitted His Son to torment to pay a penalty for the sake of the guilty. I think this is a grossly unfair characterization of G-d. I do honor Yeshua's sacrifice and I'm glad that He did what He did to show us the heart of the Father. I think it was absolutely necessary, but not in a transactional sense. It was not necessary so that G-d could forgive. It was necessary to show us that G-d had already forgiven! I think what we witnessed was the ultimate in sacrifice (on the part of G-d in Yeshua freely giving of Himself) to show us a few things:

He was willing and able to accept us back home any time we were ready to return. G-d has never been far from us. It's that we perceive Him as far from us. The Kingdom of Heaven (really the Kingdom of G-d) is, and always has been at hand.
Yeshua showed us the metaphorical path in a very literal way. We have to be willing to die, to take up our cross and follow Him to be born again. All of these metaphors, He acted out on the cross.
Yeshua showed us how to give sacrificially in a big way. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friend (John 15:13)

FROM...
https://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.html


The bible is open to interpretation and you prefer to interpret it as God needlessly choosing to have his son murdered.

Tsk, tsk.

Who did you say was responsible?



I am surprised when human sacrifice and the punishing of the innocent instead of the guilty is embraced by normally intelligent people.


Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#14New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 20:06:38
@cadiris Said

I believe with God (who is love) the most loving answer is the right answer.
.


Strange that Love would choose to kill his son instead of showing real love and stepping up himself.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#15New Post! Dec 10, 2013 @ 20:07:29
@dookie Said

Don't be such a literalist!




But, but.

Regards
DL
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