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Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?

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bob_the_fisherman On October 26, 2019
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#91New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:04:16
@chaski Said

Actually I am not "arguing for the infinite". I am stating that I believe the universe to be infinite.

What I am (generally speaking) arguing is that your argument against an infinite universe is flawed and thus far has proved nothing. You certainly haven't provided a valid argument disproving an infinite universe. There might be a proof for that, though I doubt it. Regardless, you haven't provided any such proof.

Now, In my post that you responded to, my comment and point was NOT "arguing for the infinite".... I was posting out your mathematical error.

You said "Any number divided by infinity equals a zero... Adding any amount to the number makes no difference."

So, if we take a number and divide it by infinity and get zero, then add "any amount" to that we get that amount.

So what we have is "any number" (Y) divided by infinity plus "any amount" (X).

Or Y/∞ + X = _____.

The order of operations to work out this problem is first do the division, then do the addition; i.e. PEMDAS.

So let's try it out using Y = 5 & X = 3.

5/∞ + 3 = _____.
(5/∞) + 3 = _____.
0 + 3 = 3

Perhaps you meant to say something different, but if so you didn't.


Again, you're leaving out the *relativity* bit that is kind of crucial. And I suspect that I didn't mention it initially, although you and I have had this debate before a couple of times...

But anyway, why do you believe the universe is infinite?
bob_the_fisherman On October 26, 2019
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#92New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:04:59
Hmm
bob_the_fisherman On October 26, 2019
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#93New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:06:20
Bugger! I wrote a reply and it got eaten, by my perplexed Hmm post is here twice.

TFS is back on the crack.
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#94New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:12:11



@bob_the_fisherman Said

Bugger! I wrote a reply and it got eaten, by my perplexed Hmm post is here twice.

TFS is back on the crack.



You realize, of course, that was god's way of telling you that you lost the argument and that I (Chaski) am correct.

The universe, and god, are both infinite.
bob_the_fisherman On October 26, 2019
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#95New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:14:43
@chaski Said

Actually I am not "arguing for the infinite". I am stating that I believe the universe to be infinite.

What I am (generally speaking) arguing is that your argument against an infinite universe is flawed and thus far has proved nothing. You certainly haven't provided a valid argument disproving an infinite universe. There might be a proof for that, though I doubt it. Regardless, you haven't provided any such proof.

Now, In my post that you responded to, my comment and point was NOT "arguing for the infinite".... I was posting out your mathematical error.

You said "Any number divided by infinity equals a zero... Adding any amount to the number makes no difference."

So, if we take a number and divide it by infinity and get zero, then add "any amount" to that we get that amount.

So what we have is "any number" (Y) divided by infinity plus "any amount" (X).

Or Y/∞ + X = _____.

The order of operations to work out this problem is first do the division, then do the addition; i.e. PEMDAS.

So let's try it out using Y = 5 & X = 3.

5/∞ + 3 = _____.
(5/∞) + 3 = _____.
0 + 3 = 3

Perhaps you meant to say something different, but if so you didn't.


Yes, I agree that the way I said this initially was wrong if I left out the relativity bit (which I think I may well have done). I just assumed context made it clear, I guess. I kind of took the relativity of time for granted and it never occurred to me to expressly state it until after about post two on this subject (plus we have discussed this topic a couple times over the years an I forget what has and has not been stated).


Now, I am happy for you to address that, but I also am interested in why you believe in an infinite universe. I assume there's reasoning behind the belief?
bob_the_fisherman On October 26, 2019
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#96New Post! Jul 04, 2019 @ 23:34:57
@chaski Said

You realize, of course, that was god's way of telling you that you lost the argument and that I (Chaski) am correct.

The universe, and god, are both infinite.


Of course...

Except for the infinite universe bit...
mrmhead On about 4 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#97New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 00:32:52
@bob_the_fisherman Said

The concept is that for time to move (or the water level in the bucket to rise), the bucket can not be infinite. If it is the water level never changes relative to the bucket. In other words, time never moves. This is not about absolute quantities, it is about the relative quantity of water to the bucket. The quantity of water relative to the bucket is always the same. 0.0000*%



So in your construct - "current time" is the surface of the water as the bucket fills, so the bucket must have a bottom in order for it to be filled.

...

And to travel back in time, you must swim down towards the bottom of the bucket. To travel forward, you must swim "upstream" from wherever the water is coming.

Even if that were accurate, and our known universe is the bucket...where/when is the bucket?
mrmhead On about 4 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#98New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 00:48:47
@Erimitus Said

why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip?



To get to her other egg.
mrmhead On about 4 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#99New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 00:49:58
@Erimitus Said

The way I learned it energy can change form but cannot be created or destroyed.

finite...



Then where did it come from?
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#100New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 03:28:41
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Yes, I agree that the way I said this initially was wrong...



Enough said.
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#101New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 03:29:26
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Except for the infinite universe bit...


Come now, your infinite god needs and infinite place to live.
Erimitus On about 8 hours ago




The mind of God, Antarctica
#102New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 13:32:09
@chaski Said

Except it has not been proven false, and your sad attempts at so called thought experiments, philosophical arguments, incorrect math, failed logic and misapplied science tend to give my position credibility.

Thank you for that.



how do you prove a negative?
Erimitus On about 8 hours ago




The mind of God, Antarctica
#103New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 13:40:36
@mrmhead Said

To get to her other egg.



Why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip?

A. To get to the same side..
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#104New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 14:58:28
@Erimitus Said

how do you prove a negative?


In theory, if the universe is finite then it has finite dimensions that could be measured.

Of course the universe is so "large" and our intellect so "small" that "we" can't do it... at least not yet.

As to whether or not the universe is infinite in therms of "having always been here, it is pretty doubtful that "we" will ever be able to prove it either way. Even if some "beginning" like the big bag were "proven", the question would remain "what was there before the big bang?"

In any case, these so called "thought experiments that people come up with are ultimately meaningless snd prove nothing.

For hundreds of years philosopher tried to prove the existence of god with so called logic, philosophy, "thought experiments", etc... and each of the "proofs" have been found to have flaws that boil down to: "if A = B, and I claim a bunch of other stuff that may or may not be true, then I can make a great leap away from logic and facts and claim that I just proved the existence of god". Thus far, however, the soft science if philosophy has not proven either god... or a finite universe.

The bottomless bucket "thought experiment" is right up there with dumb "proofs" that god doesn't exist like: "if god is all powerful, then can he make a something so big and heavy that even he can't move it?" At first blush it looks like a flaw in the "all powerful" thing, but in reality is a dumb meaningless statement that proves nothing.
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#105New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 15:08:40
@Erimitus Said

how do you prove a negative?


Answer part 2: The only way to prove that the universe isn't infinite, is to prove it is finite.

As stated in my other response, if the universe is finite "we" are not capable of that proof... yet... if ever.

If the universe is infinite, "we" probably won't ever be able to "prove" it.

We might run out of reasonable options ("proofs" ) that the universe is finite, which would suggest the infinite... somewhat (though not precisely) like calculating Pi.
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