The Forum Site - Join the conversation
Forums:
Q & A

Is TFS A Discussion Forum Or Just A Mouthpiece For Propaganda?

Reply to Topic
AuthorMessage
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Nov 17, 2017 @ 18:16:01
Evelyn Beatrice Hall (pen name S G Tallentyre), in her biography The Life Of Voltaire wrote the phrase "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This quote is often mis-attributed to Voltaire himself, but it's telling that it should have been actually written by a woman. And a British woman at that.

I'm sure everybody on here has heard it used many times and each one of us on this site (and others) has probably used it themselves.

But do we actually believe in what it means..? Sure, it's great as a throwaway line when speaking up on behalf of a mate who has said something that is under challenge in a discussion, but how many of us would hold to it when confronted by a point of view that they personally disagree with... perhaps vehemently.

Would you argue on behalf of somebody you disagree with, that, regardless of what you personally think, they have a right to say what they believe..?

I ask this question genuinely because in the last few days or so, and particularly in the last 24 hours, I have had cause to doubt that this site... and at least one of its administrators... believes in open discussion or the rights of the individual to have his / her voice heard.

I accept fully that my views on war and military personnel are viewed by some with distaste. That's fair enough. I don't expect people to agree with me, as by the same token, I sometimes disagree with them.

But I recently came across a thread which posted a war poem. In response, I posted a peace poem. The OP didn't object to this and I expect he considered it fair game. He had had his say and I had had mine. If it had stopped there, then the whole thing would have ended equitably.

Enter another individual who knows who he is (and you can see his response if you seek out the thread concerned) who took it upon himself to make the issue rather personal and nasty, and proceeded to spam the thread (against TFS rules) with a mass of pro-war material which amounted to, in my opinion, little more than propaganda thinly disguised as poetry.

Now, he may disagree with my assessment of the poetry and if he argued his case on its merits, that too would have been fine. But he didn't. He resorted to an "I don't like the message so I'm going to shoot the messenger" attitude. He attempted to bully me... something he's done on other threads over a long period of time.

I responded with another poem and this time explained the meaning behind it so that it would be quite clear that it contained, in my opinion, a valid message that anybody reading it may either agree with or challenge if they so wished.

This morning I found a rather peremptory order (an order, no less) from this individual not to post again on another, similar thread to which I had also made a similar sort of challenge. I was also told to go and start my own thread and not use his (his personal property, it would appear).

I also found myself placed under an official warning from the Moderator with a link to the poem and its meaning that I refer to in the previous paragraph.

This action by two individuals, I suspect acting in conjunction with each other, raises serious questions about the validity of TFS as a genuine platform for open, free and vigorous discussion.

I have no problem with anybody posting on any subject they wish but when they do so they lay their opinions and statements open to scrutiny and challenge. If I choose to dispute the content of any post, is that not what a discussion forum is for..?

Or is it only here to provide a mouthpiece for those who consider their viewpoint sacrosanct and above challenge..?

Notwithstanding that my response may be considered distasteful and disrespectful by the other party, is it right that I should be swamped out with spam (against site rules) verbally abused (also against site rules) and then penalised for writing according to my beliefs by a person who has a duty to be fair and impartial, and a moral obligation to act according to the principles of free speech and open discussion..?

I doubt very much that the moderator who warned me for making what I believe was fair comment that contained no personal abuse, bad language or spam, issued a similar warning to the person who spammed, abused and bullied me.

If this forum is to be dictated to by closed minded individuals and administered by those who would repress a valid counter argument then what value the freedom and liberty that we are constantly told soldiers are fighting for..?

Do they only fight to give people the liberty to agree with them..? Laud them..? Shower endless praise upon them..?

Or is there a higher ideal..? Would any soldier ever fight to give me the freedom to criticise him.? Because that's what they're SUPPOSED to be fighting for.

Liberty is a double edged sword. If we are to believe that wars are fought for freedom - including freedom of speech - then does that not extend to those like myself who make a counter argument..?

I was once told that "There is no debate without dissent." I agree with that. Without a dissenting voice, all we are is toadies telling each other how right we are and that encourages those who would feed us propaganda disguised as poetry or homage or anything else as long as it achieves the aim of shaping opinion on their side.

We need somebody to introduce an alternative argument in order to achieve balance so that people can read both arguments and make up their own minds. That's what discussion forums are meant to do otherwise the whole thing is pointless.

I don't mind if people challenge what I say if they can do it with a valid argument. Even then, I might still disagree with them. The discussion may become vigorous and argument and counter-argument may go back and forth. That is what a debate is meant to be..?

But when one party attempts to howl the other down, and then repress them, or worse still, tell them that they must not post there... go and start another thread elsewhere..... then the whole purpose of a discussion forum is lost.

I did consider starting another thread, but that would negate the whole purpose of a discussion forum and If I added caveats such as telling posters they could only write things that I agree with on my thread, then I would then be guilty of the same intolerance, oppression and tyranny as the other.

If anybody can't challenge my arguments with reasoned debate, should I be penalised for his inadequacy..?

Should I my voice be suppressed by an administrator who abuses his authority as a weapon to silence an opinion he doesn't like to hear..?

What does this site actually stand for..?

Because it increasingly appears not to be about open discussion or the exchange of views.



Some of you may get to read this before it's taken down.... Which is not unlikely to happen. It's been done to me before and I have no reason to doubt that censorship is not still alive and kicking on TFS.

I will probably get a ban too, for having the temerity to challenge what I see as a wrong.

I said at the start of this post that it was telling that the person who wrote the immortal quote was a woman, and British.

I'm a British woman and hold dear to my heart our long tradition of liberal values.

I can assure anybody who gives a damn that I will continue, as long as I am a member of this site (be it short or long), to keep expressing my beliefs and opinions and if that rubs anybody up the wrong way, then challenge me on the merits of my arguments. I say: Bring it on.

My last comment is that if I am banned for this message, it will say more about the people who do the banning, than it does about the banned.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#2New Post! Nov 17, 2017 @ 18:23:08
I'm not sure the TFS has enough participants to be a Mouthpiece For Propaganda.

That aside, we seem to have (IMO) a fairly diverse set of views.. some extremely to the right all the way to the left (I wouldn't say "far" left as I don't think we have any hard core communists here...though I could be wrong), from Atheist to Religious, from homophobic to socially tolerant (or at least leaning towards tolerant), and much (if not everything) in between... and certainly a few who spout more or less nonsensical propaganda.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#3New Post! Nov 17, 2017 @ 19:06:29
You are referring, I am sure, to my reaction to a request by a user of this site to keep his thread on topic. My response was to issue a warning to you (without removing any points, I would like to add) and post a message in the thread requesting that it be kept on topic.

Your post in the thread was left up and is still in fact viewable by anyone, and the request I posted did not single you out in any way, shape, or form.

I was unaware that this was tantamount to censorship since you have not been banned or silenced in spite of the fact that you have repeatedly and openly harassed that particular user by incessantly posting in threads created by him with things opposite the intended scope. You've done this regardless of repeated requests made directly to you to allow the threads to remain on topic. Had you made the same request for help and been ignored, I imagine you would be perturbed as well you should be since as a moderator, I have a duty to act on reasonable requests.

You always propose a solution to conflict that goes something like "instead of being hostile, try talking to people and making requests." How did that work for me this time, Jennifer? I made a civil request in that thread to keep it on topic, not even mentioning you in it, and you immediately launched hostility back at me in that same thread.

I responded to the nasty note you then left directly addressed to me in the thread, which ignored my request to keep things on topic, still in an extremely polite, peaceful, and civil manner. I advised you that I would offer the same wholly and completely impartial assistance if you had a thread and sent me a request asking for it. I stand by that statement.

I did warn you at that point that I would ban you if you went off topic in the thread again because it would have been the third time you had done so after being asked repeatedly to comply. Even then, I managed to do so professionally and without hostility.

Your next move was to start this thread and fill it with more hostility toward me. Again, after I had done nothing to publicly shame you, call you out, or even censor you. I have done nothing to deserve the hostility.

I also, by the way, pointed out in the same message that it is a violation of TOS 3.23 to "Repeatedly and publicly call into question the decisions of The Forum Site moderators and administrators." I did not issue any official warning to you or ban you for doing so although I would have been completely within my right to do so. I am so much further within that right now after you have posted this thread.

You are now again in direct violation of that TOS which, as I also provided in my message, is linked in the entire Terms of Service statement on the bottom of every page of this site. Additionally, you have chosen to violate it immediately after being verbally made aware of it.

We are not dictators here and understand that some of our decisions may be questionable, but the correct course of action is to send a PM and ask for clarification or air out your grievance. If you are not comfortable doing so with me, DiscordTiger is an administrator and El_Tino is the site owner and can be contacted as well with complaints over my performance. I would encourage you wholeheartedly to report me to either of them if you believe I am acting unfairly.

I am bound by those Terms of Service to act as a moderator regardless of my personal beliefs and I believe that most members who know me here will agree that I have maintained my impartial stance when acting in an official capacity.

That you have repeatedly harassed other members, myself included on occasion, and have never once been banned from this site by me should be evidence to you that there is no rampant censorship abounding and people are not being silenced for speaking opinions contrary to others.

The fact that you do not like some of the rules and that you do not wish to follow them, as every single other member of this site is expected to, and the fact that a lawful request was made that was followed through on, and the fact that doing so did not silence or otherwise hinder you in any way from speaking your mind are not valid reasons to ask "Should I [sic] my voice be suppressed by an administrator who abuses his authority as a weapon to silence an opinion he doesn't like to hear..?"

How have I suppressed your voice? How have I abused my authority? I made it clear that you are free to post your own threads and that you would enjoy the same protection as anyone else in doing so, provided they are within the Terms of Service. I promised you that quite openly in no uncertain terms in my response to your message in the other thread.

And still, I stand by that.

You have repeatedly and rather rudely attacked me openly in several instances and accused me of saying some pretty horrible things that I have never said and I have yet to attack you really in any way.

The fact that this thread is still up and viewable and that you still have not been banned (no...I am not going to remove your post or ban you this time, though I am sure I would have full support to do so) should tell you something as well as anyone else reading this thread.

Please do your best to refrain from spreading untruth about me. I ask this as a civil, well intentioned, personal request from one human being to another. I have never spoken an untrue word about you though we disagree on many things and I hope you will afford me the same courtesy.

It is rather telling that one of us claims loudly and quite often to be against conflict and a lover of peace and that same person is the only one of the two who also launches personal attacks and puts words in the other's mouth time and again.

I will, as I must at this point, say that further disregard for the Terms of Service must result in your banning. Not just in this thread, but anywhere on this site. I have given you ample leeway and much more warning than many other posters have gotten in the past, and this is not to silence or censor you. It is only to officially request that you voice your opinions in a manner that is within the Terms of Service, as is expected of every other member of this site. Please post your mind as you see fit, but if you violate the rules again, you will be banned...because special treatment of you would be unfair to the rest of the members.

I hope, honestly and truly, that you will take heed and allow the reasoned debate, which you so adamantly claim to want, to rule your actions moving forward. I sincerely and genuinely hope that you do not make me regret refraining from banning you for this.

Peace, Jennifer.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#4New Post! Nov 17, 2017 @ 19:57:01
I'll add that I'd like for everyone viewing this thread to post your thoughts but please keep them civil and on topic here as well, as I believe this can be a pretty important discussion.

Thanks.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#5New Post! Nov 17, 2017 @ 22:48:41
@Eaglebauer Said

I'll add that I'd like for everyone viewing this thread to post your thoughts but please keep them civil and on topic here as well, as I believe this can be a pretty important discussion.

Thanks.



And there you go ruining everything with your propaganda manipulation posts...
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#6New Post! Nov 18, 2017 @ 06:26:09
This thread is in direct violation of TOS.

And somebody sure knows how to whine like there is no tomorrow.

Just f***ing start your own thread if you really want your viewpoint heard.

Simple really.
Justpassing On February 03, 2021




Avoca Vic Australia, Australia
#8New Post! Nov 18, 2017 @ 21:34:04
AND THAT POST COST ME 2 POINTS!!!!!!

Raise your swords Administrators!!!!!!
Ratty On November 08, 2021




So Cal, California
#9New Post! Nov 18, 2017 @ 21:52:31
No one posts here much so there isn't a huge amount of discussion happening.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#10New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 00:00:21
@Ratty Said

No one posts here much so there isn't a huge amount of discussion happening.


Indeed. Which makes her long diatribe all the more comical.

All that verbiage for maybe 5 readers, max.

Even less who give a s***.
Ratty On November 08, 2021




So Cal, California
#11New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 00:03:55
@Leon Said

Indeed. Which makes her long diatribe all the more comical.

All that verbiage for maybe 5 readers, max.

Even less who give a s***.


Yeah, this forum blows... city data is much better, way way way more posters.

Here is the same 5 or 6 people....
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#12New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 00:15:07
@Ratty Said

Yeah, this forum blows... city data is much better, way way way more posters.

Here is the same 5 or 6 people....


I don’t mind it actually, since I’m too busy to post much or very often anyways.

It has a history and there are a few friends on here I’ve made, including Eaglebauer, so it brings me back on here.
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#13New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 01:28:54
the past year, I notice that members, who like to argue, who likes to push member's buttons are banned.

there are been healthy discussions on the forum more ever. this discussions, obviously, does bring in any old or new members on not always a regular status on the forum.

in this thread and other threads, I notice there is more understand from both mods and members. as if it was a respect for each others. this forum need more that than some nonsense over the years, that members put on this forum.

what I see as observer only, some conflicts on this thread is the past, and some recent. I think two parties are in conflict, are now, has better understand with respect with each others. and, somewhat ground rules, not go over the lines with each others.

very health in this forum.

I agree that I lost interest in a thread, that topic not challenging me to posting on. I do get tired of reading personal conflicts with mods and members or members with each others.

I stay neutral in these affairs. most of time, not the questions taking side or getting involve with the fight. most of time, I don't care, sometimes it stupid to read to get involve.

why, I should get involve with discussion that I lost interest in the topic, as well, the argument or whatever. it is easier, to go back to the homepage, and wait for a topic, that I contribute on.
Ratty On November 08, 2021




So Cal, California
#14New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 07:03:40
@Leon Said

I don’t mind it actually, since I’m too busy to post much or very often anyways.

It has a history and there are a few friends on here I’ve made, including Eaglebauer, so it brings me back on here.



@twilitezone911 Said

the past year, I notice that members, who like to argue, who likes to push member's buttons are banned.

there are been healthy discussions on the forum more ever. this discussions, obviously, does bring in any old or new members on not always a regular status on the forum.

in this thread and other threads, I notice there is more understand from both mods and members. as if it was a respect for each others. this forum need more that than some nonsense over the years, that members put on this forum.

what I see as observer only, some conflicts on this thread is the past, and some recent. I think two parties are in conflict, are now, has better understand with respect with each others. and, somewhat ground rules, not go over the lines with each others.

very health in this forum.

I agree that I lost interest in a thread, that topic not challenging me to posting on. I do get tired of reading personal conflicts with mods and members or members with each others.

I stay neutral in these affairs. most of time, not the questions taking side or getting involve with the fight. most of time, I don't care, sometimes it stupid to read to get involve.

why, I should get involve with discussion that I lost interest in the topic, as well, the argument or whatever. it is easier, to go back to the homepage, and wait for a topic, that I contribute on.


I agree. Eagle is a great poster. I'm glad that asshat Shino is gone, that guy was a hard on killer. I've never met a more enraging poster than that d***head, him being gone is a good thing...
Justpassing On February 03, 2021




Avoca Vic Australia, Australia
#15New Post! Nov 19, 2017 @ 12:15:59
@Leon Said

I don’t mind it actually, since I’m too busy to post much or very often anyways.

It has a history and there are a few friends on here I’ve made, including Eaglebauer, so it brings me back on here.


I used to come here a few years ago and I remember it as being busier.
Back then, I also had a lot more free time. lol

Now I just like to come and make a quick visit inbetween checking emails.

I think a lot of people prefer the "instant" responses and the "look at me" of FB instead of stimulating 'conversation' and the odd (???) boxing match. lol
Reply to Topic<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>

1 browsing (0 members - 1 guest)

Quick Reply
Be Respectful of Others

      
Subscribe to topic prefs

Similar Topics
    Forum Topic Last Post Replies Views
New posts   TFS Gaming
Sat Mar 04, 2017 @ 14:04
3 985
New posts   TFS Gaming
Mon Mar 06, 2017 @ 01:27
5 1222
New posts   TFS Gaming
Sun Sep 07, 2014 @ 18:33
3 1015
New posts   Skunky's Official Stinky Feet Forum
Fri Oct 09, 2020 @ 20:32
66 8118
New posts   Entertainment
Wed Sep 01, 2010 @ 12:20
14 1413