Heaven and Hell

@chaski Said

Side note:

Not counting Jesus (and his dad), there are only three essential characters in the story. In order of appearance:

1. Mary; Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

2. Judas; Jesus had to be betrayed by his friend/followers for silver.

3. Pilate; Jesus had to be executed (i.e. sacrificed for our sins).

These three were essential and had specific essential parts of the story that had to happen. They had no choice. Mary had to do the virgin birth; Judas had to do the betrayal; Pilate had to allow the execution of Jesus. Without these three elements the prophesies never would have been fulfilled and there would be no salvation... no Christianity.

> One could argue that John the Baptist was a 4th essential character; the baptism bit. Personally I wouldn't agree, but also wouldn't waste time arguing. Still it was just a pretty little interlude to the story.

>> One could also argue that Satan was necessary, but he was really part of the prologue. However, the 40 days in the wilderness didn't need Satan. It would have been more like Buddha under the bodhi tree.

Everyone else were bit players in the story. Peter... sure he denied Jesus, but Jesus was already arrested. The other Apostles were just numbers (there needed to be a total of 12). Essentially all other characters were were either just characters of the prologue or characters of the epilogue or extras.

@Erimitus Said

And resurrection; no resurrection no religion.

...And JC did not reply to ponchos's question. I picture Jesus doing a face palm and slowly shaking his head from side to side.

@Ratty Said

Good Black Sabbath album.

@mrmhead Said

Even those that never have the opportunity to learn about Christianity?

And I'm not referring to babies. As I understand it, that is the purpose of baptism. ... though, the question remains - if they die before they are baptized, is it off to hell for them?

@chaski Said

That is what I said, which was not what you said.

To repeat, Pilate said, “I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.”

Pilate "washed his hands" of the sentencing of Jesus to death as it was the religious leaders of the Jews who called for Jesus' death.

Pilate did not wash his hand of the truth.

Pilate didn't care at all. He was acting for Rome. In that area he had all the power from Rome to make his decision. If he cared, he had the power from Rome either free Jesus or just executed Jesus himself But Pilate did not care. He clearly though that the Jews were being stupid, but since he didn't care, he let then do what they wanted to; i.e. execute Jesus. Thus Pilate "washed his hands".

However it was god's plan, thus Pilate could NOT free Jesus. He had to deliver Jesus to be murdered. The prophesies had to be fulfilled.

If Pilate had freed Jesus, Jesus would not have died for your sins... the prophesies would not have been fulfilled...you would not have any Christianity.

The story had to play out to its final conclusion so "we" could have salvation.

Ultimately it was part of god's plan... Pilate never really had a choice.

When you read the bible, please do try to pay attention.

@MisterX Said

English Standard Version
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

@MisterX Said
Gods fore-knowledge, where-in
He knew the actions of Pilate, before He created Earth or anything.

@MisterX Said


You have a big mouth,

@MisterX Said


and Pilate did have a choice, even if it was pre-ordained, he had a choice.

@MisterX Said


And Pilate actually washed his hands, it is not a metaphor.

@mrmhead Said

So there's a "Hell-Lite" for all those that never heard of Christianity, and babies that die before baptism?

@mrmhead Said

Well, that's comforting to know.
So I shouldn't fret over believing or not believing because it's already decided and he already knows if I change my mind or not at some point in the future.

Thanks.
I can rest easily with my agnosticism.
....
Ins't that kind of cheating?

@chaski Said

Great argument!

You apparently don't understand the meaning of "pre-ordained... and no he did not have a choice. The prophesies had to be fulfilled.

Yes. It was literally a metaphor.... he was acting out the metaphor for emphasis.

There are two options here:

1. The Jesus story is real, therefore Pilate had no choice.

2. The Jesus story is not real, therefore Pilate had a choice

You don't get it both ways... no mater what you say there are only two options here.

Pick your choice: belief in your god or do not believe in your god... it is your choice.

PS
You need to go back and read ALL of your Bible... and STUDY it... and stop pitching trite religious dogma that you don't even understand.

@MisterX Said

You are a both babbling oaf's, there is some more of my bad argumentation.

See you at the Judgement.

@MisterX Said

You are a both babbling oaf's,

@MisterX Said



See you at the Judgement.

@MisterX Said

You are a both babbling oaf's, there is some more of my bad argumentation.

See you at the Judgement.