Heaven and Hell.

If you gain access to heaven, you are granted eternal life, peace, and harmony, if you are thrown into hell, you are to suffer for eternity for your earthly sins. Thats the basic explanation, but ive been thinking...

Eternity, infinity, and forever are measures of time, but once the universe expands to the point where it collapses and time ends, doesnt eternity and foreverness end with it? If this is so, there is no such thing as forever, heaven will come to and end, hell will come to and end, and God himself would come to an end right?



random question: so we all know, or most of us know, that dolphins are second in intelligence only to humans, and it seems that they are developing REALLY fast, and maybe will evolve to the point where we can directly communicate, but if this happens, what do you think the answer would be if we asked them if they knew of this "God" person, or a the creator?

Infinity is an undefined quantity. Although it is the absolute limit of all numbers, it is not itself considered to be a number.

As with infinity so it is with eternity. While eternity is all of time, it is not actually a measure of time.

Time exists within eternity. Eternity has no beginning nor an end. Eternity is the beginning and the end, of time, simultaneously. These are things which one can contemplate whilst fasting in order to provide the soul with the richest of fare.

With regards to the eventual destruction of heaven and hell you are correct. As the Scripture indicates:

Revelation 21:1
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


This one sentence can feed a soul for many a day.

With regards to God Almighty you are incorrect. The Lord God, the Maker of heaven and earth, the sovereign, majestic, Holy One, who sits enthroned above the circle of the earth is life itself> He is eternal, nay, he is eternity. Blessed be his mighty Name.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The dolphins would tell us to worry about our lives on earth. To serve humanity. To help ourselves.

I think the dolphins might say, "Oh yes we have a god too but he looks like a dolphin, and he has a beard like jeebus".

I firmly believe in an infinite, necessary existence. Nothing is a ridiculous concept fabricated in a dualistic human brain, thus there is no need for any questions regarding any of this creator nonsense as existence is necessary and infinite and requires no creator. There is no beginning or end to existence as a whole, only to yours and mine. Life is creative, not created.

Heaven and hell would be beyond the constraints of our worldly definitions of time. They are not a part of the universe, bound to the end of the universe's time. They would be truly infinite.

And the dolphins would simply say, "Good-bye, and thanks for all the fish." Then they will all leap into the sky and swim away right before the end, without even telling us after we gave them all that fish.

It is funny that we talk about things beyond the constraints of our conceptions and definitions. Can we really have a conversation about this at all? If one cannot make speculation about the nature of heaven and hell then one really can't say much about the existence of these places either? When is the end of the universes time and when did we decide that it has an end?

Hey, not meaning to pick on you - but an infinite existence that is necessary, is peculiarly limited to discussion of the existence of a god. Matter does not have the property of 'necessary' existence. It is logically possible to concieve a reality in which no material universe exists - many people have, in fact, posited that the universe exists solely in the mind of god. It is not a very popular or likely belief, but it is certainly possible, and demonstrable as possible. Matter, then, is not 'necessarily existent'.

On infinite existence - no, it is not possible. Infinite existence actualy is a logical impossibility.

Sorry

existence pre dates logical possibility, it will definitely outlast it as well. Logic is a frame in which we try to fit the world but logic didn't dictate the worlds existence. The concept of matter not existing is actually an abstract concept. We can imagine it (sort of) but that does not bring it into existence, or should I say non-existence. There is no reason to believe that there should ever be a time or have been a time when there wasn't something. Pick on me all you want, if thats what you call it.

This is an unproved assumption, not a fact. Basing an argument on it is not logically valid.




Again, an unproved assumption.



Again, this is an assumption. The fact that a rational unioverse exists, is certainly able to be used to mount a case for a logical creator creating a rational universe that corresponds to human logic.



This last part is untrue. We actually do know that the universe has a beginning - an infinite amount of time cannot have passed, yet, here we are. Or, to put it another way, imagine that you had the ability to travel back in time at a rate of 1 trillion to the power of 1 trillion years per second, whilst time continued moving forward at a rate of one second per second. You could do this for an infinite length of time, and nver reach a point at which time must start moving forwards - in other words, more time can pass going backwards than can actually be acounted for going forward.

The infinite universe idea is no longer taken seriously.

I would love some more info on what you just said, It made no sense to me. We can't go back in time and if we could we couldprobably go on forever as if we could go forward we could probably go on forever. I see no hard evidence in your statement. Scientists are to be questioned just as scientists question. How do we know that the universe has a beginning? Next question, what happened before that?

Hey, don't insult me, I am not a scientist! Hate the buggers Philosophy is my thing...

There is no 'hard evidence' only logic. Actual infinites in the universe have been denomstrated as not being logically possible.

The idea of my point above, was to show that time can move backward, quite literally, infinitely faster than it does move forward...

There are arguments out there that show why actual infinites are not possible (including the one I use here).

However, there are physical problems with it. Energy in the universe is finite, and the universe would be heat dead in an infinite universe.

For the record dude, don't stress - I am just a half arse philosopher that likes debating things with people... It tends to piss a lot of my mates off IRL, so I do it here It's all good...

Since they die too, the issue has probably come up--if they're self-aware.
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If I came off stressed I'm sorry. I'm also just a half-assed philosopher who enjoys debate. As to your last post about time, I have to say back at you with your earlier use of "unproved assumption"
I will agree that we cannot "know" that there is no god, using a very particular use of the word "know" I will also say, using that same particular use, "we cannot know that unicorns do not exist" So I am an agnostic in regards to god if I am also agnostic in regards to unicorns. THe god myth holds no more weight, that has been my argument and I am not sure if you have addressed it directly but it seems that what you are saying is that due to the fact that the existance of god might answer some questions it is more valid mythology than unicorns. I just want to repeat that belief in god is a process involving faith, not believing requires no more faith than it requires to not believe in unicorns. The word faith is being misused to put theism and atheism in the same category. The science reference wasn't meant as an insult, I love science. There is no hard evidence as you said and scientists saying that the universe is not infinite is just speculation. An interesting thought on that subject, if you were watching the news and they were showing some astronauts out in space who had found the outer edge of the universe wouldn't you wonder what was beyond that?