God gave us free will?

ok, so what would you say to a baby that was born prematurely? she lives for 3 months in the nicu and then dies? who made that f'n choice?

what????

I just love how people speak for God, like he is thier best friend and tells them everything under the sun...

all quite virtuous i'd agree but i don't submit to god and conduct my behavior in precisely the same manner that you mention here. so what does submitting yourself to god mean then if i can be just as morally and ethically correct as you and do it all on my own rational thought process?



then do you give thought to the theories of the big bang and evolution? i've given thought to what the bible says and will give more thought to it if ever some evidence is presented to me that would make me take another look. but how much study have you put into the sciences or the other world religions for that matter? do you have the free will to let your mind wander outside what your jealous god would like?



but i don't badmouth god. i simply do not see any evidence to make me believe he exists. he just might exist i simply think that there are far more plausible explanations for the beginning of the universe and the ascension of the species. so how am i badmouthing god to the point that he won't let me into his home? you faithful keep saying that badmouthing is not the issue god has with me. i keep hearing that it's that i don't believe precisely as you do that god has an issue with. i don't have to badmouth god according to the bible i've read. i better believe or else.

i invite the witness folks in on a hot day for iced tea and i'll happily discuss what ever they'd like to discuss. for the most part they leave quite frustrated with me but i treat them well. why would god not want to treat me well and invite me into his home? if he did, he just might be able to convince me huh? but folks like you keep telling me that won't happen.



i disrespect nobody, gods or humans, nor any living thing for that matter. some folks i believe psychologists would diagnose as delusional but i still respect them. it's their thought process that i have a problem with, not the person.



that is precisely what i intend to do. indeed i worry about little in life. how bout you?



of course i define religion as websters does in that to be a religion, one need only believe in a deity. it's possible that you are a religion with only one adherant. god is a deity by definition. a belief in god need not be organized into a religious group as you seem to think it does. but hey, let's simplify things. i wrote this thread so how about we define religion as i do for the purpose of discussing gods, religion and free will here? if you believe in god you are a religious person in this thread ok?



so what does you once being an atheist have to do with free will? if anything, you gave up a ton of free will when you submitted to the will of god did you not? or DO you submit to the will of god? can't have it both ways me thinks?



as regards your chosing something other than your jealous god it would seem that you've lost at least that free choice.



sure. but you seem to disreagard every other answer to universal questions other than your god. i've cast off god and the bible as delusional thinking long ago but i at least allow that you might be correct even though only minutely so. as a presbyterian i did believe in god and accepted jesus as his son and my savior. now i think i was delusional to think that. but you don't think that the theories i see as more likely answers can ever be correct do you? so who has the free will?



other than the spirituality crap, i do just that. i learn more and more every day and as a result i am a more capable person today than i was yesterday. and i do it all without god.

you have been consistent in saying that i've no right to call your responses and thoughts delusional and here you call his response "most insane". can you tell me why i should consider one with such a double standard credible? was it your belief in god that gave you such "fairness" in thought? hmmmmmm.




i see. and you'd choose to have a drunk driver cross the center devider and headon you huh? or did he chose to drink and drive? hey, this is confusing huh?

Again, stuff happens. Not everything is planned out by God.

I just want to say to all the Atheists who don't really understand anything about God, neither does any other human beings. We have a guide to moral and ethical thinking, the Bible, but don't have any understanding what God, the uncaused cause, is.

We are all talking about an entity that exists beyond time and space, because the only way time and space can exist is it was created by something that is beyond time and space, and we keep on going around and around in circles, because the human mind can only think in time and space.

I don't have the mental capacity, nor does any Christian here, have the mental capacity to say God is real, how God works, or how God feels.

I am reasonably sure, that God doesn't micro manage every single aspect of every single thing in this world, because if he did, there would be no free will. I believe, because he exists outside of time and space, he sees everything that has happened from the moment of creation to the end of creation, because he exists beyond time and created time.

So, lets end it like that.

Sure, religious people, who try to think it out, like Atheists and Agnostics try to think and figure God out, will come up with some f**cked up explanations about God or why he doesn't exist, but again, we are talking about something that exists beyond time and space, and is beyond human comprehension!

On other stuff, did you know I bought and read the Jesus Family Tomb, god is not Great, and many other books that discredit Christianity. I found some quite informative, but there were points I rejected out of those books as well.

I don't discount that God, the uncaused cause, could have made the Big Bang, but I don't dwell on it too much. I use to believe in Macro-evolution, but over the years, the theory didn't make sense, as some of the changes that would have to go into some life forms to others would be impossible to happen over generations, because some of the intermediate steps would prove fatal to the organism. But I will listen to the theory, because I use to believe in it. Nothing wrong with ideas.

But all these things don't really matter to me. The only, one thing that matters to me is, how close am I to Jesus. I could learn all these things in the world, become world famous as a person of exceeding learning, but if Jesus said - get away from me though wicked and slothful servant, I would be truly grieved in my heart if he said that.

That's what I don't understand. If Christians believe that their God is Omniscient, and so knows all that has and will ever happen, how can he know the outcomes of our actions if we do not even know them ourselves? If that's the case, then we cannot possibly have free will as God already has the knowledge of what we will do.

We're talking about a being that exists outside of time and space. He may know, but doesn't control us. He may see the outcome, but he doesn't manipulate it.

Jesus was asked by his disciples how to pray and in response they were given the lords prayer. In the lords prayer is the surrender of free will to the will of God. Hence a good Christian is not coerced into relinquishing his free will but is doing it out of their own volition.

My point is that you or I who have unfettered free will to jump from the plane with no chute... just as the Christian can commit all manner of sins and then go sit in the lake of fire. Either way free will can be exercised. However in the case of Pharoh who had his heart hardened by God ... he had his free will removed

of course. i've always said that all living things have free will. you've made the point for me that i was trying to convey by stating this thread. that point being that once a person submits to the will of god or "believes" in anything based on faith, they have voluntarily given up their free will at least as concerns that issue. but although i will not say that the god fearing are wrong, i at least have the free will to explore every area of learning. but these "jealous gods" keep the faithful within bounds of the bible, quoran, etc., or else. so such concepts such as the big bang or evolution become impossibilities even with vast amounts of evidence in their support. such a belief in a concept against all evidence to suggest an alternative is a phsychiatric diagnosis of delusionary by the fields definition.

I must say, I think this thread is a tad silly to be honest. I have the free will to crush my testicles in a vice, yet choose not to. According to you, Bogie, I am somehow relinquishing my free will as a result.

Assuming someone believes in the existence of a god, they are exercising their free will, whether they obey that god or not, to the exact same extent that you are exercising yours, by choosing an anti-theistic agnostic position (that's assuming of course, that free will exists, something that, as agnostic, you cannot really affirm to be true). You are confusing free will with the ability to hold a position you affirm to be wrong, which seems a little pointless to me.

You say in your original post that Christians give up the right to explore other options - well, why would they want to explore other possibilities when, as far as they are concerned, they already know the truth - it seems pretty pointless. Also, they could easily look at you and say, well, you somehow negate your free will, by not becoming a Christian - it is every bit as valid as your argument.

What free will means in Christianity- textbook version

Since God is omniscient, God has foreknowledge, meaning he knows what everyone will do in the future and what any individual would do in any given situation. This foreknowledge enables God to have a plan for everyone's life. For instance, if God wants a particular action to occur, he knows who would choose to do that action, and under what circumstances they would choose it; thus he is able to plan for it to happen. However, God's knowing what choices we will make is simply knowledge - it doesn't remove our free will, for we are still the ones making the choices.

I have to come back with what it means in Judaism- everytime I try to do two in one it gets messed up.
The above is what a Christian minister would say about free will. I believe in this definition of free will/ we never give up our choices, however God is the only one who knows how things will end.

The textbook explanation of free will in Judaism

the Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination. Indeed, Jewish ethics requires the idea that humans decide for themselves how to act. This is so because temptation, and with it the possibility of sin, allows people to choose good and thus have moral merit. The Jewish view is not that humans are helpless in the face of moral error.
I can't see where Jews and Christians are different in their view of free will.Christianity is broken off from Judaism, where we have a new testament and believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they don't
This is just the tip of the iceberg, that's why comparative religions is so important, you need to know the basis for common beliefs and why they are practiced.

I completely agree with you. Bad stuff happens because it HAS to happen in order for the world to exist and be in balance. BUT the bad stuff humans do is all down to us. God does not want us to do it but he will not stop it because he gave us that choice, he will try to put us right but if we are set on doing something he will not. Accidents are nothing to do with free will. God is a guide. Most of the arguments to do with God are because people who are not Christians cannot understand that God and religion are two different things. I believe in God but I do not believe in in a lot of things in Catholicism (the church that raised me). I agree that some Christians are control of people's free will and do believe that God makes every single thing happen (like the nut jobs that believe 9/11 was the work of God) and ridiculas teachings about pagans ect ect. (that right pisses me off >_<