Four Members of Extremist Right-Wing Party Jailed

dookie

Foolish Bombu

, United Kingdom

#61

Jun 24, 2020 @ 21:06:44

Sorry, I was trying to edit my post and came a demented cropper!

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Edited: June 24, 2020 @ 21:10

mrmhead

NE, Ohio

#62

Jun 24, 2020 @ 21:11:54

@dookie Said

.....which would seem to suggest sometimes the bias of its viewers plays a part in their judgements.

1

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#63

Jun 24, 2020 @ 22:34:13

Jen, could you remind me of the times in history where the group that tries to silence its political opponents has been on the right side of history?

But that aside, this is a very revealing response:

@Jennifer1984 Said

The only thing Yaxley-Lennon has ever exposed to public gaze is his racism, his criminality, his inadequacy as a human being and by extension, the same character flaws in those who follow him.

So, it is ok for your side to say gays should be shot and laugh about it.
It is ok for your side to (allegedly) threaten, intimidate and try to sexually assault a gay man.
It is ok for your side to mock Greeks about the Genocide committed by the Young Turks.
It is ok for your side to call workers cannibals and aliens.
It is ok for your side to lie about a man and try to falsely accuse him of sexual abuse.
It is ok for your side to manipulate footage to change the context and create a false narrative.

All of this was done by the BBC Panorama program and Sweeney, and was caught on film (except the intimidation and harassment of the gay guy). He only made the allegation on film.

And you think all of that is ok.

As I say, Jen, you proclaim a goodness you fail to posses.

Doing that to anyone - whether they seek to protect children (like me and Tommy), or protect their abusers (as in the case of the BBC), is not acceptable. Truth is important. Every human being whether I support them or not, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. And that applies to the scum that abuse children in grooming gangs. They should be locked up and never allowed near a child, and they absolutely should not be protected by the police while they continue offending, but they are still human and deserve to have the rule of law applied to them.

Do you agree with or repudiate this vile Tweet?

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bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#64

Jun 24, 2020 @ 22:56:31

@dookie Said

Are you simply referring to the BBC's coverage of Tommy Robinson or are you asserting that the BBC is not credible at any level?

Do you think that the BBC has a higher level of bias than the average Media organisation?

I frequent quite a few Comments Sections and meet, often, claims that the BBC is "Right Wing"....." Left Wing"...... "Anti-Brexit"......"Pro-Brexit".....which would seem to suggest sometimes the bias of its viewers plays a part in their judgements.

Maybe we all need to spread our net for gleaning information far wider than just one or two outlets. Maybe try a broader number of videos?

Jen made a very broad claim that Panorama acts with integrity. She even effectively issued a challenge to me - a challenge I met.

I showed unequivocally that the BBC acts with bias and that the Panorama team were more than willing to lie. The illusion is gone. Moral proclamations are no longer valid regarding the BBC. It does not matter what people call them (right, left, neutral etc., as that will vary with the topic and people's individual perception), what matters is shattering the absurd illusion that they or anyone, are unbiased. Unbiased is not a thing.

Anyone who claims they are objective is either lying to you or themselves. Claiming "my side is unbiased" is a product of willing self delusion or extremely inadequate reasoning skills.

And as far as getting information from different sources, I agree. It is why I look at BBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, Sky News (Aus mainly) and other sources that are blatantly dishonest. And the reason I know they are dishonest is because I also go to the source whenever I can (like C-span in the US which shows things in full without any commentary).

The example I love to use is Trump's comment after Charlottesville. Everyone here seemed to believe Trump called white nationalists "fine people" because the media lied and said he did. I showed them where he expressly said he was NOT talking about them. The media inverted truth 180 degrees. And they still do it today, calling Trump a racist based on that lie (and many others).

Mainstream media does not even try to be honest any more - and that includes media I supposedly support like Fox (which ftr I almost never watch).

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Edited: June 24, 2020 @ 22:59

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#65

Jun 24, 2020 @ 23:09:07

@Jennifer1984 Said

These are the sort of people that some members on this forum support and we need to be under no illusions about that

They are terrorists and need to be treated as such. Remember this when propaganda for the likes of Yaxley-Lennon are posted.

I am not even right wing

If the guys you speak of are racist, I do not support them. If they are anti Muslim I do not support them (Muslims are people. Islam is an ideology - or rather, a number of distinct ideologies. Some of them are good, some of them are extremely far from good). If they incite violence they should be arrested and imprisoned. I certainly do not support that. I do not condone the use of political violence by any one. Anyone doing it should be locked up.

You need me to be evil. Why is that? Do you ever stop for a moment of self reflection? Maybe that is what separates us more than anything else. I question my motives and beliefs.

I want a world where everyone is free to believe and say what they want without fear of the government or another individual attacking, threatening or silencing them. What is the world that you want, Jen?

Now to the substance of the article.
I agree that what you call right wing extremism is rising. That is a concern. And it will continue to rise in coming years. I now spend more of my time dealing with people who are being radicalised.

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Edited: June 24, 2020 @ 23:09

Jennifer1984

Returner and proud

Penzance, United Kingdom

#66

Jun 25, 2020 @ 07:03:44

@bob_the_fisherman Said

I am not even right wing

If the guys you speak of are racist, I do not support them. If they are anti Muslim I do not support them (Muslims are people. Islam is an ideology - or rather, a number of distinct ideologies. Some of them are good, some of them are extremely far from good). If they incite violence they should be arrested and imprisoned. I certainly do not support that. I do not condone the use of political violence by any one. Anyone doing it should be locked up.

You need me to be evil. Why is that? Do you ever stop for a moment of self reflection? Maybe that is what separates us more than anything else. I question my motives and beliefs.

I want a world where everyone is free to believe and say what they want without fear of the government or another individual attacking, threatening or silencing them. What is the world that you want, Jen?

Now to the substance of the article.
I agree that what you call right wing extremism is rising. That is a concern. And it will continue to rise in coming years. I now spend more of my time dealing with people who are being radicalised.

I think you're becoming paranoid and increasingly deranged in your attempts to justify yourself.

You've proven nothing. You've linked to one or two posts from less than completely reliable sources and you call this "proof". Desperate.

You've not proved BBC bias because if you had I'm quite sure you'd know that this goes against the Royal Charter under which the Corporation is required by law to act. and I reckon Dominic Cummings would have gotten to that one before you, as his hatred of the BBC is even more swivel-eyed than yours.

You've proven nothing. You're indulging in bluster. As usual.

Virtue signalling in an attempt to claim some sort of moral high ground is another act of desperation.

And yet again, you are attempting to spam a thread that challenges your extremist stance because you can't otherwise challenge it.

The facts are there for all to see.

Right wing terrorism is now considered by the police and security services to be a growing threat in our country.

The incidence of right wing terrorism is growing

Right wing terrorists ARE being sent to prison for crimes.

Those are indisputable facts, Bob. And all your bluster and all your attempted deflections, your gaslighting, spamming and lofty claims and whatever else is passing through your fevered imagination today, won't make them go away.

I don't "need" you to be evil. I don't even think you are evil. I think you're sad.

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Edited: June 25, 2020 @ 07:06

dookie

Foolish Bombu

, United Kingdom

#67

Jun 25, 2020 @ 07:13:46

@bob_the_fisherman Said

Jen made a very broad claim that Panorama acts with integrity. She even effectively issued a challenge to me - a challenge I met.

I showed unequivocally that the BBC acts with bias and that the Panorama team were more than willing to lie. The illusion is gone. Moral proclamations are no longer valid regarding the BBC. It does not matter what people call them (right, left, neutral etc., as that will vary with the topic and people's individual perception), what matters is shattering the absurd illusion that they or anyone, are unbiased. Unbiased is not a thing.

Anyone who claims they are objective is either lying to you or themselves. Claiming "my side is unbiased" is a product of willing self delusion or extremely inadequate reasoning skills.

And as far as getting information from different sources, I agree. It is why I look at BBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, Sky News (Aus mainly) and other sources that are blatantly dishonest. And the reason I know they are dishonest is because I also go to the source whenever I can (like C-span in the US which shows things in full without any commentary).

The example I love to use is Trump's comment after Charlottesville. Everyone here seemed to believe Trump called white nationalists "fine people" because the media lied and said he did. I showed them where he expressly said he was NOT talking about them. The media inverted truth 180 degrees. And they still do it today, calling Trump a racist based on that lie (and many others).

Mainstream media does not even try to be honest any more - and that includes media I supposedly support like Fox (which ftr I almost never watch).

So basically a video produced by one side of an issue demonstrates unequivocally that the other side are biased, but they - everyone - are all biased anyway which one assumes includes the video.. Well, whatever, yes, according to current jargon we, the human being, is in essence "the being who interprets." "Facts" no longer exist. Some seek to dig themselves out of the hole by claiming that some interpretations are better than others, better in the sense of having broader corroborative support.

0

Jennifer1984

Returner and proud

Penzance, United Kingdom

#68

Jun 25, 2020 @ 07:29:12

@dookie Said

So basically a video produced by one side of an issue demonstrates unequivocally that the other side are biased, but they - everyone - are all biased anyway which one assumes includes the video.. Well, whatever, yes, according to current jargon we, the human being, is in essence "the being who interprets." "Facts" no longer exist. Some seek to dig themselves out of the hole by claiming that some interpretations are better than others, better in the sense of having broader corroborative support.

I've said these things a hundred times before. It makes no impression.

But it was worth trying. Again. Thanks.

You have to realise one thing with Bob. When he sees a thread he doesn't like, he tries to drive it down a blind alley. Gaslighting. This is defined as:

A form of psychological manipulation in which a person sows the seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception or judgement....... using denial, misdirection, contradiction and misinformation. Gaslighting involves attempts to destabilise the target's beliefs. Instances can range from denial by an abuser that previous incidents occurred, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the target.

Read his posts. It's there for all to see.

The reason for gaslighting is clear: A thread presents an unwelcome proposition. The task is clear: De-rail the thread. The end objective is clear: Stop the proposition being accepted by the group.

If he were to put forward an alternative proposition and argue that it would be constructive but it isn't. It's a plain attempt to drive the thread down.

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Edited: June 25, 2020 @ 07:32

dookie

Foolish Bombu

, United Kingdom

#69

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:11:27

@bob_the_fisherman Said

If the guys you speak of are racist, I do not support them. If they are anti Muslim I do not support them (Muslims are people. Islam is an ideology)

Good grief Bob, OWN your words!

From your Profile:- who I would like to meet.. "A peaceful Muslim (there must be one somewhere)"

Take it down.

0

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#70

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:35:46

@dookie Said

So basically a video produced by one side of an issue demonstrates unequivocally that the other side are biased, but they - everyone - are all biased anyway which one assumes includes the video.. Well, whatever, yes, according to current jargon we, the human being, is in essence "the being who interprets." "Facts" no longer exist. Some seek to dig themselves out of the hole by claiming that some interpretations are better than others, better in the sense of having broader corroborative support.

Logical fallacies are not logical.

To say we are all biased is not to say that, therefore, facts do not exist or that everyone lies about everything all the time.

0

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#71

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:42:43

@Jennifer1984 Said

The reason for gaslighting is clear: A thread presents an unwelcome proposition. The task is clear: De-rail the thread. The end objective is clear: Stop the proposition being accepted by the group.

If he were to put forward an alternative proposition and argue that it would be constructive but it isn't. It's a plain attempt to drive the thread down.

And yet I have agreed that right wing extremism is a thing, and I have explicitly said it is a growing problem. The point of contention comes from the fact you lable people right wing extremist, Nazi, fascist etc., if they disagree with you.

I do not care about race. Nazis did.
I do not want to silence people. Nazis did.
I do not believe in the concept of a privileged race. Nazis did.
I do not believe in social justice. Nazis did.
I do not want an ethnostate. Nazis did.
I do not believe people are inferior due to their race. Nazis did.
I do not want government control of health and education. Nazis did.
I do not want the state to ban speech. Nazis did.
I do not advocate, condone or support political violence. Nazis did.

0

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#72

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:44:02

@dookie Said

Good grief Bob, OWN your words!

From your Profile:- who I would like to meet.. "A peaceful Muslim (there must be one somewhere)"

Take it down.

"Yak herders, camel traders and a peaceful Muslim (there must be one somewhere)."

It is called humour.

0

dookie

Foolish Bombu

, United Kingdom

#73

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:45:08

@bob_the_fisherman Said

Logical fallacies are not logical.

To say we are all biased is not to say that, therefore, facts do not exist or that everyone lies about everything all the time.

ah, you are onto the age old "objective" truth versus "relative" truth, and if there is no "objective" truth then "anything goes".....and so on and so on.....

Basically this is where we part company. I have been working on it for a few years now from an "eastern" perspective, as the "western" hits a brick wall.

I'll leave it there, as your long gone assertion that you "just like a good argument" left me unwilling to engage in serious debate.

All the best

0

dookie

Foolish Bombu

, United Kingdom

#74

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:46:11

@bob_the_fisherman Said

"Yak herders, camel traders and a peaceful Muslim (there must be one somewhere)."

It is called humour.

Nice dodge.

(Quite frankly, given the posts you have made on this board over the years, to make the claim that you are not "anti-muslim" is absurd)

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Edited: June 25, 2020 @ 08:55

bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

, Angola

#75

Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:52:10

@Jennifer1984 Said

You've proven nothing. You've linked to one or two posts from less than completely reliable sources and you call this "proof". Desperate.

The documentary features footage of John Sweeney that was filmed without his knowledge. It is him speaking, not someone telling us what he allegedly said.

Now you can mount a case that things were taken out of context - and that is true in that the full context is not given. However, there are certain things in there that are indisputable. He tried to set up Tommy using in his words "a sexual thing," he coached Lucy on what to say, and he did not do any research to determine whether a text message was from Tommy - he had the text with him and asked Tommy about it but it backfired horribly.

There is no desperation in pointing you to words spoken by a guy working for Panorama after, if you recall, you lauded them as being honest or good or whatever.

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