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Crush On June 23, 2021




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#16New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 07:16:00
Students in California are suing over free speech restrictions on campus.

Quote:
In his lawsuit, Sinapi-Riddle is challenging Citrus' free-speech zone, an anti-harassment policy that he argues is overly broad and vague and a multi-step process for approving student group events. The college had eliminated its free-speech zones in a 2003 legal settlement with another student, but last year "readopted in essence the unconstitutional policy it abandoned," the complaint alleged.


Cops deny free speech on a college campus in Oregon.

Quote:
'What I'm here to tell you is that on campus we have additional rules other than just freedom of speech,' said the cop
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#17New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 07:40:24
@Crush Said

You're just discounting his argument by assigning bad motives to him. You really don't see anything wrong with professors being afraid to speak their minds freely?



Where else in our culture are free speech zones as common as a university? The free speech zones aren't about keeping protestors out of dorm rooms. It's about marginalizing politically unpopular speech.




Congressional hearings into the suppression of free speech on college campuses doesn't amount to evidence? How do you respond to the ACLU calling it a serious issue?


I'm saying it's Thernstrom from Harvard all over again. People are making a mountain out of a molehill. Professor says things that make him sound like an insensitive a*****e. Students don't like it, they told people they think his comments were insensitive. THEY DID NOT TAKE FURTHER ACTION. The press gets involved and suddenly the story is the professor is no longer allowed to teach because his class is not politically correct. The administration didn't even care if he taught that topic or another one in his field, it was all electives anyway. Very few specific core classes are required, most tenured profs have freedom to teach various topic in their field.

It sounds like the ACLU is down with both the prof and the students being able to say what ever the heck they wanted about the topic. Neither party was actually censored by the university. It was the media and people wanting to be offended by the "big bad PC movement" that were essentially acting like chicken little.


I'm saying professors are free to speak their mind freely. They do it all the time and nothing happens.

As for free speech zones, it happens all the time. Want to show up to a city council meeting and protest or express your views, great, want to picket city hall, great. Want to camp out in the mayor's office when he isn't actually there, chaining yourself to a bookcase, taping up s*** to the wall, and allegedly pushing around a staffer you are mostly likely going to get arrested for disorderly conduct.
Protest and free speech is awesome, but there are some responsibilities. Most serious protesters are usually down with being arrested as part for the course. Can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#18New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 07:48:51
@DiscordTiger Said
It sounds like the ACLU is down with both the prof and the students being able to say what ever the heck they wanted about the topic. Neither party was actually censored by the university. It was the media and people wanting to be offended by the "big bad PC movement" that were essentially acting like chicken little.


Did you read the ACLU piece? They argued that free speech is indeed being censored, and this amounts to a violation of the first amendment when done at public universities.


@DiscordTiger Said
I'm saying professors are free to speak their mind freely. They do it all the time and nothing happens.


That's the point, professors and others aren't free to speak their minds.

@DiscordTiger Said
As for free speech zones, it happens all the time. Want to show up to a city council meeting and protest or express your views, great, want to picket city hall, great. Want to camp out in the mayor's office when he isn't actually there, chaining yourself to a bookcase, taping up s*** to the wall, and allegedly pushing around a staffer you are mostly likely going to get arrested for disorderly conduct.
Protest and free speech is awesome, but there are some responsibilities. Most serious protesters are usually down with being arrested as part for the course. Can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs.



I have to ask again, are you reading what I link to, or even reading what I quoted in the previous posts?

The free speech zones are means to limit free speech. It's not about keeping people from protesting in a library or the mayor's office. It's about making it more difficult for people with unpopular opinions to speak their minds.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#19New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 07:55:59
@Crush Said

Students in California are suing over free speech restrictions on campus.



Cops deny free speech on a college campus in Oregon.



The first case is arguing out ones persons right to picket/protests over other students rights to not have their classes disrupted. Basically defining the line between where the rights of the individual verses infringing on the rights of the many.
How else to we as a society work on that balance if not through court cases and setting precedent, that is how all first amendment issues are ultimately decided.


The second one looks like a cop just trying to shut things down. When it comes to protests and s*** cops are always the "enemy" working for "the man". Just trying to oppress people. Or tear gas them and break up the crowd and restore the peace. I mean, it's like their job. Police officers say wrong things all the time, we should question it. (Preferably respectfully so no one gets shot) I mean, they do get to legally mislead people about s*** all the time in the course of their job, or play good cop/bad cop.


I guess I am not really seeing these as a signs of a problem, but as the typical back and forth that goes along with freedoms. Individual incidents may swing one way or another, but that doesn't mean that makes a pattern. You win some, you lose some.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#20New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 07:58:04
The USA Today has an interesting piece on the topic.

Quote:
But it is precisely because of our differences about the correct social, economic and foreign policies that it's so important to protect the right to free speech for all, especially in our colleges and universities.

Unfortunately, that imperative is being honored these days more in the breach than the observance, often by student "progressives" who, in gestures not of tolerance or broad-mindedness but of the rankest kind of illiberalism, attempt to shut down campus functions and speakers with whom they disagree.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#21New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 08:07:58
@DiscordTiger Said

The first case is arguing out ones persons right to picket/protests over other students rights to not have their classes disrupted. Basically defining the line between where the rights of the individual verses infringing on the rights of the many.
How else to we as a society work on that balance if not through court cases and setting precedent, that is how all first amendment issues are ultimately decided.


No it's not. From the article:

Quote:
But communications director Paula Green forwarded copies of Citrus' free-speech policy, which declares that the campus is a "non-public forum" except where otherwise designated to "prevent the substantial disruption of the orderly operation of the college."


A public, tax payer funded university is a "non-public forum"? It strains credulity to think that a college can only operate by limiting the time and place of a protest in such a way as to effectively limit speech.

@DiscordTiger Said
The second one looks like a cop just trying to shut things down. When it comes to protests and s*** cops are always the "enemy" working for "the man". Just trying to oppress people. Or tear gas them and break up the crowd and restore the peace. I mean, it's like their job. Police officers say wrong things all the time, we should question it. (Preferably respectfully so no one gets shot) I mean, they do get to legally mislead people about s*** all the time in the course of their job, or play good cop/bad cop.


Cops shutting down a protest isn't limiting free speech? That's a stretch.


@DiscordTiger Said
I guess I am not really seeing these as a signs of a problem, but as the typical back and forth that goes along with freedoms. Individual incidents may swing one way or another, but that doesn't mean that makes a pattern. You win some, you lose some.


But when several news sources attest to the same phenomenon, when people in the university system speak out against the practice, when Congress has hearings to decide if legislation is in order, then it's safe to say there is a pattern.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#22New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 08:11:12
@Crush Said

The ACLU has also taken a stance against the attack on free speech on college campuses.



@Crush Said

Did you read the ACLU piece? They argued that free speech is indeed being censored, and this amounts to a violation of the first amendment when done at public universities.




That's the point, professors and others aren't free to speak their minds.




I have to ask again, are you reading what I link to, or even reading what I quoted in the previous posts?

The free speech zones are means to limit free speech. It's not about keeping people from protesting in a library or the mayor's office. It's about making it more difficult for people with unpopular opinions to speak their minds.


Yes, I read all of what you linked to. As well as the rebuttles to Schlosser. I just don't agree with him. He is free to argue whatever he wants, that does not mean I have to find his argument convincing. I think (and I'm not the only one) that the situation is more complicated in academia about tenure, budget lines, personality conflicts, work ethics, and developing coursework that the decisions to remove or retain an adjunct prof is based solely on the offending the feelings of a student. Academic culture is just more complicated than that.

The ACLU link also contains:

Quote:
The ACLU isn't opposed to regulations that penalize acts of violence, harassment or intimidation, and invasions of privacy. On the contrary, we believe that kind of conduct should be punished. Furthermore, the ACLU recognizes that the mere presence of speech as one element in an act of violence, harassment, intimidation or privacy invasion doesn't immunize that act from punishment. For example, threatening, bias-inspired phone calls to a student's dorm room, or white students shouting racist epithets at a woman of color as they follow her across campus -- these are clearly punishable acts.

and
Quote:
The ACLU believes that the best way to combat hate speech on campus is through an educational approach that includes counter-speech, workshops on bigotry and its role in American and world history, and real -- not superficial -- institutional change.

Universities are obligated to create an environment that fosters tolerance and mutual respect among members of the campus community, an environment in which all students can exercise their right to participate fully in campus life without being discriminated against.


Which in relevance to the Harvard prof Thernstom incident, ACLU would have supported thernstrom's alleged* racist speech AND the counter speech of his students to say that was offensive.

Personally, I don't think thernstrom was being racist, but that it became a poster child incident for how awful PC is, completely independent of the actual facts.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#23New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 08:23:00
@DiscordTiger Said

Yes, I read all of what you linked to. As well as the rebuttles to Schlosser. I just don't agree with him. He is free to argue whatever he wants, that does not mean I have to find his argument convincing. I think (and I'm not the only one) that the situation is more complicated in academia about tenure, budget lines, personality conflicts, work ethics, and developing coursework that the decisions to remove or retain an adjunct prof is based solely on the offending the feelings of a student. Academic culture is just more complicated than that.

The ACLU link also contains:


and


Which in relevance to the Harvard prof Thernstom incident, ACLU would have supported thernstrom's alleged* racist speech AND the counter speech of his students to say that was offensive.

Personally, I don't think thernstrom was being racist, but that it became a poster child incident for how awful PC is, completely independent of the actual facts.



To think there's no problem, you have to dismiss a boatload of evidence to the contrary. From the facts presented so far, it's undeniable that there has been restrictions on free speech at universities in the US.

Perhaps you're not so keen on free speech and think the curtailments are just. But if so, that's a different argument.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#24New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 08:23:24
@Crush Said

No it's not. From the article:



A public, tax payer funded university is a "non-public forum"? It strains credulity to think that a college can only operate by limiting the time and place of a protest in such a way as to effectively limit speech.



Cops shutting down a protest isn't limiting free speech? That's a stretch.




But when several news sources attest to the same phenomenon, when people in the university system speak out against the practice, when Congress has hearings to decide if legislation is in order, then it's safe to say there is a pattern.


Universities are not completely tax funded. They are also funded by the tuition of the students paying to attend classes there. There has to be a balance to the the right of people to protest and the rights of people to attend class.

It comes down to the right to swing your arms stops at my face.

Again, I never said there were not problems at universities. I said that prof you linked to in the OP, has a non convincing argument.

I thought this topic was, about the argument that a students "feelings" trump a professor's job, and supposed "censorship" in a classroom. You keep bringing up other articles on general freedom of speech on campus, that I don't even know what the heck we are arguing any more. I don't even think we disagree all that much in general. Except that you seem to be convinced by Schlosser, where my experience leads me to question his argument as incomplete.

and its like almost 2:30, so I really should go to bed for the night soon. This has been interesting though
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#25New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 18:25:29
@Crush Said

Did you read the ACLU piece? They argued that free speech is indeed being censored, and this amounts to a violation of the first amendment when done at public universities.




That's the point, professors and others aren't free to speak their minds.




I have to ask again, are you reading what I link to, or even reading what I quoted in the previous posts?

The free speech zones are means to limit free speech. It's not about keeping people from protesting in a library or the mayor's office. It's about making it more difficult for people with unpopular opinions to speak their minds.


Do you tout EVERY ACLU stance? I'm thinking not for some strange reason.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#26New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 18:29:14
@DiscordTiger Said

Universities are not completely tax funded. They are also funded by the tuition of the students paying to attend classes there. There has to be a balance to the the right of people to protest and the rights of people to attend class.

It comes down to the right to swing your arms stops at my face.

Again, I never said there were not problems at universities. I said that prof you linked to in the OP, has a non convincing argument.

I thought this topic was, about the argument that a students "feelings" trump a professor's job, and supposed "censorship" in a classroom. You keep bringing up other articles on general freedom of speech on campus, that I don't even know what the heck we are arguing any more. I don't even think we disagree all that much in general. Except that you seem to be convinced by Schlosser, where my experience leads me to question his argument as incomplete.

and its like almost 2:30, so I really should go to bed for the night soon. This has been interesting though


Been over & over this with Crush in other threads- keeps wanting to make it out as white or black when everyone else accepts it as gray.

If Crush served you a meal where some of it was great, some mediocre & some of it pretty crappy- he's going to expect you to say that it was either fantastic or not good- any deviation from the polar opposites would be pronounced being PC.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#27New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 22:43:33
@shinobinoz Said

Do you tout EVERY ACLU stance? I'm thinking not for some strange reason.



They're fairly doctrinaire when it comes to free speech. I'm down with that.
Crush On June 23, 2021




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#28New Post! Jun 08, 2015 @ 22:45:17
@shinobinoz Said

Been over & over this with Crush in other threads- keeps wanting to make it out as white or black when everyone else accepts it as gray.

If Crush served you a meal where some of it was great, some mediocre & some of it pretty crappy- he's going to expect you to say that it was either fantastic or not good- any deviation from the polar opposites would be pronounced being PC.



Ah, yes, another of your favorite tactics. You love to avoid questions. You love to ask for proof then disallow the proof when it's posted. You also like to hide in the "grey area" like a hen hiding from a hawk. Anything to avoid actually confronting issues.
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#29New Post! Jun 09, 2015 @ 11:56:07
Not curtailing free speech, but
Politically correct college students 'don't know what the f--k they're talking about
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#30New Post! Jun 09, 2015 @ 17:47:59
@Crush Said

They're fairly doctrinaire when it comes to free speech. I'm down with that.


They are. Still does not remove the responsibility of free speech.

If I protest in such an egregious way & incite violence that kills one of your family members- I'm quite sure you'll be standing next to me supporting my right to free speech!
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