Faith and reason

Following are four quotes, regarding faith and reason, by those in the know.

Should one say that knowledge is founded on demonstration by a process of reasoning, let him hear that first principles are incapable of demonstration; for they are known neither by art nor sagacity...
The first cause of the universe can be apprehended by faith alone.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

If you are not able to know, believe that you may know. Faith precedes; the intellect follows.

AUGUSTINE

I believe though I do not comprehend, and I hold by faith what I can not grasp with the mind.

BERNARD OF CLAIRVAUX

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

COLOSSIANS 2:8

Causa sui (the self-caused) is the right name for the god of philosophy. But man can neither pray nor sacrifice to this god. Before the causa sui, man can neither fall to his knees in awe, nor can he play music and dance before this god.

MARTIN HEIDEGGER



God bless you.

If they're so smart, how come they're dead?

Because elephants are grey.


God bless you.

So what would that actual be then? If I can not know say what the name of someone is then if I believe I can know, then I shall know? How would that work exactly if it is someone I have meet before well then there name is stored somewhere in my brain and I have just forgotten it.

If I do not know the person how can believing I know help. If I simply ask then I am just asking there is no faith that follows intellect.

I would not consider memory all that there is to intellect ( but that is neither here nor there), I just wish to try to show the proublem I could see with such a view.

And everyone knows most elephants are pink we just can't see them cause they are such good hiders

I think that you will find that Augustine is referring to matters which are slightyly more immense than people's names.

The intellect is unable to grasp such things as all of creation and its origins, it can only be guided by a higher faculty. That faculty is faith.


God bless you.

"Faith preceeds, the intellect follows!

There is much to be said for this. Without some form of trust/faith in a rational Universe it would be difficult for any scientist to proceed to discover just what makes it tick. Without such faith, seeing the universe as just blind matter in motion, without aim or purpose, such a pursuit of "truth" would not seem worth the candle.

Personally I would go further, with Faith in the infinite love/infinte compassion of the divine, the trust that Mercy has the final word and not Judgement. The more we follow this, with both heart and intellect, the more our own hearts mirror the divine, then by grace we see with more understanding and clarity the world around us. I realise that the sheer suffering of some precludes such faith, and to look around this world would suggest that soemthing other than love guides and sustains it. But this is faith I suppose.......

?I cannot believe that the inscrutable universe turns on an axis of suffering; surely the strange beauty of the world must somewhere rest on pure joy!? (The poet Louise Bogan)

And the fruit is spoken of in the Good Book!

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law" (Galatians)

I think the trouble comes when "faith" and "belief" are confused. Faith "lets go and lets God" and allows grace to do its work, "for the earth brings forth fruits of herself" - belief clings. When the intellect follows belief then we can expect trouble, when it is unfounded and hangs suspended like the grin of the Cheshire Cat with no visible means of support! Belief in a "Holy" book, literal and infallible? We all make our choices.

Bless you all

Double post,now deleted.Sorry!

Reason....

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

Katie (who sparks)

Yes, looking back through history we have to observe that of all those who lived in their "certainties" one thing needs to be said, that all their "certainties" were mutually contradictory! Showing conclusively that subjective certainty need be no certainty at all. Of cousre, this does not exclude the possibility that one of the "certainties" could in fact be true, and the others false. This, no doubt, would be the get out clause for those who wish to retain their "certainty" and not be troubled any further.

Faith certainly does not rest in certainty, but follows more the advice of the Christian mystic St John of the Cross who said..."If we wish to be sure of the road we tread on, we must close our eyes and walk in the dark." I suppose if we took this literally we would soon be struck down by a ten ton truck, but as advice for the life of faith it has much to be said for it - allowing us to remain vulnerable and open to the work of Grace in our hearts.

"Inside the Great Mystery that is,
we don't really own anything.
What is this competition we feel then,
before we go, one at a time, through the same gate?" (Rumi)

All the best
Grace