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Facts are one thing, but what about our beliefs?

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ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#1New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 12:54:53
Do we build our beliefs, or do we discover them?

If our beliefs are based on reason, would reason not lead us all to the same place?

Do we conquer doubt, or do we declare a truce with it?
chisa96 On December 29, 2014
Supreme Goddess





Out in Nature, Wisconsin
#2New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 13:06:06
@ThePainefulTruth Said

Do we build our beliefs, or do we discover them?

If our beliefs are based on reason, would reason not lead us all to the same place?

Do we conquer doubt, or do we declare a truce with it?



Depends on the person and their 'spiritual journey'.

Only if we all reasoned the same way.

sister_of_mercy On March 11, 2015




London, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 13:54:57
@ThePainefulTruth Said

Do we build our beliefs, or do we discover them?

If our beliefs are based on reason, would reason not lead us all to the same place?

Do we conquer doubt, or do we declare a truce with it?


You build up beliefs like you would a house, I think. You have basic ones that are core to having any understanding about the world, then you gradually construct a network of beliefs stemmed from that.

Beliefs are not always based on reason, but those that are don't necessarily lead us to the same place. We do not all reason in the same way, depending on how you were raised or what part of the world you live in. There is obviously basic logic like syllogisms and the such, but even then there are various ways of reasoning, which would lead us to different conclusions. Not everyone studies logic or reasoning either so are likely to use different reasoning tools.

As far as the last question goes, I'm not so sure. I don't think it will ever be possible to defeat scepticism so one may as well accept that there will be things that remain doubtful, but that's not to say we should give up on attempting to understand things.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#4New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 13:58:26
@chisa96 Said

Depends on the person and their 'spiritual journey'.

Only if we all reasoned the same way.



So reason is an individual decision? Wouldn't that mean that facts are chosen?
chisa96 On December 29, 2014
Supreme Goddess





Out in Nature, Wisconsin
#5New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:01:51
@ThePainefulTruth Said

So reason is an individual decision? Wouldn't that mean that facts are chosen?



Our reasoning process doesn't always lead us to facts.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#6New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:13:22
@sister_of_mercy Said

You build up beliefs like you would a house, I think. You have basic ones that are core to having any understanding about the world, then you gradually construct a network of beliefs stemmed from that.


How do you determine core beliefs?

Quote:
Beliefs are not always based on reason, but those that are don't necessarily lead us to the same place. We do not all reason in the same way, depending on how you were raised or what part of the world you live in.


How can reason lead us to different places? What is reason? Is it different than intuition?



Quote:
There is obviously basic logic like syllogisms and the such, but even then there are various ways of reasoning, which would lead us to different conclusions. Not everyone studies logic or reasoning either so are likely to use different reasoning tools.


Isn't that just another way of saying that some of will be wrong about some things due to ignorance?

Quote:
As far as the last question goes, I'm not so sure. I don't think it will ever be possible to defeat scepticism so one may as well accept that there will be things that remain doubtful, but that's not to say we should give up on attempting to understand things.


I agree.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#7New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:18:05
@chisa96 Said

Our reasoning process doesn't always lead us to facts.


Then what is reason and what does it do? How do we identify facts or evidence? You appear to be saying that they are matters of choice.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#8New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:21:20
@ThePainefulTruth Said

Do we build our beliefs, or do we discover them?

If our beliefs are based on reason, would reason not lead us all to the same place?

Do we conquer doubt, or do we declare a truce with it?


A bit of both in my case, though you could even say they discovered me.

Yes my beliefs are based on reason, there is no value on anything that isn't.

That would only be true if all humans are reasonable, but that is far from the case. I believe myself to be reasonable because I use reason to arrive at my decisions, others who are totally opposed to me feel they are reasonable too for, in their view the same reasons. So what really is "reason"? Is it truly any more than a way of looking at things which can be severely affected by our personal biases.

It can take time to conquer doubt, and only a fool conquers it completely as there has to be room for a little doubt, if only of ones self, in any life. I have conquered any doubts I ever had, as far as I wish to anyway. The day I stop questioning everything, even my own beliefs will be the day my life ends.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#9New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:25:23
@MadCornishBiker Said

A bit of both in my case, though you could even say they discovered me.

Yes my beliefs are based on reason, there is no value on anything that isn't.

That would only be true if all humans are reasonable, but that is far from the case. I believe myself to be reasonable because I use reason to arrive at my decisions, others who are totally opposed to me feel they are reasonable too for, in their view the same reasons. So what really is "reason"? Is it truly any more than a way of looking at things which can be severely affected by our personal biases.

It can take time to conquer doubt, and only a fool conquers it completely as there has to be room for a little doubt, if only of ones self, in any life. I have conquered any doubts I ever had, as far as I wish to anyway. The day I stop questioning everything, even my own beliefs will be the day my life ends.


Do you KNOW that God exists, or do you just believe that He does?
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#10New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:25:44
@ThePainefulTruth Said

Then what is reason and what does it do? How do we identify facts or evidence? You appear to be saying that they are matters of choice.


Unfortunately they all too often are. Given the same basic facts two people can easily, and in their view at least rationally arrive at opposing answers. Reason, in humans tends to be coloured quite heavily by our biases, and we all have them.

A typical example is evolution theory. I often listen to evolutionists talking about this or that and describing, in the words, them wonderful way this is designed" and I feel like screaming at them, "listen to yourself, you said it, DESIGN". The things they are describing are far too complex to be accidental and they tacitly admit that without ever leaving the idea of accidental evolution. To me that is highly unreasonable, but not to them.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#11New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:33:45
@ThePainefulTruth Said

Do you KNOW that God exists, or do you just believe that He does?


I know beyond reasonable doubt.

Knowing something for sure to me means being able to produce unarguable evidence that some thing is what it purports to be, however I very definitely believe that God exists and I believe I have seen far too much evidence to deny that. In fact I now believe the evidence for God is absolutely overwhelming, if not absolute.

Why not absolute? Because I can't point to anything and say that it is definitive evidence. All the evidence there is is either circumstantial, or follows by logical extension from something else that is inarguable.

That is also why I have such faith in the bible. Having proved it to be accurate historically and prophetically I accept that it is the inspired word of God. Once I have accepted that I accept that no God worthy of the name would have any need, or desire, to lie so therefore, all of the bible must, by extension be true. That tends to be backed up by the simple fact that there is no way God benefits if we believe Him, other than His being vindicated in his argument with Satan.
sister_of_mercy On March 11, 2015




London, United Kingdom
#12New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:34:13
@ThePainefulTruth Said

How do you determine core beliefs?



How can reason lead us to different places? What is reason? Is it different than intuition?





Isn't that just another way of saying that some of will be wrong about some things due to ignorance?



I agree.



Therein lies the predicament. Core beliefs are things that are immune to doubt and that help elucidate our understanding of other beliefs. Some would say God is a core belief, others would say mathematics or the self and some might say empirically proven beliefs. It depends on your philosophical outlook. I haven't made up my mind what mine are as of yet.


"Isn't that just another way of saying that some of will be wrong about some things due to ignorance?"

Yeah, though you could also adopt a relativist approach and say that there is no absolute right or wrong and that even proper logic is open to interpretation.

"How can reason lead us to different places? What is reason? Is it different than intuition?"

Depends on the way in which you reason. There'd be no philosophy if we all reasoned the same. Intuition is believing something without having knowledge of it, whilst reason is a tool one uses to get to the formulation of a belief/knowledge.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#13New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:39:12
@MadCornishBiker Said

Given the same basic facts two people can easily, and in their view at least rationally arrive at opposing answers.


Then either they weren't facts, or one of both didn't rationally (reasonably) arrive at their conclusions.


Quote:
Reason, in humans tends to be coloured quite heavily by our biases, and we all have them.


So by your own admission, your reasoning is tainted by bias. You say your beliefs are based on reason. What are beliefs worth based on such subjective "reasoning" tainted by bias?
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#14New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:50:16
@sister_of_mercy Said

Therein lies the predicament. Core beliefs are things that are immune to doubt


Only facts are immune to doubt, by definition.

Quote:
Some would say God is a core belief


Yes, it is my core belief as well, but that belief is not beyond doubt. In fact, it's 50/50 by any reasoning I've ever seen.


Quote:
Yeah, though you could also adopt a relativist approach and say that there is no absolute right or wrong and that even proper logic is open to interpretation.


In which case there would be only chaos without objective Truth. Logic, facts and reason are not open to interpretation, only to error.
ThePainefulTruth On May 06, 2013
Verum est Deus


Deleted



Peoria, Arizona
#15New Post! Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:57:48
@MadCornishBiker Said

I know beyond reasonable doubt.


Qualified knowledge.

Quote:
.... however I very definitely believe that God exists


Which is it, knowledge, qualified "knowledge" or belief?
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