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Election 2020 Issues: Immigration

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Leon On August 16, 2019




San Diego, California
#1New Post! Jun 03, 2019 @ 14:34:21
If you were President and had a House majority and Senate supermajority on your side, how would you reform our nation’s system of immigration?

If you’d like a summary of the issue, read below...

Immigrants to the United States primarily enjoyed an open door policy through a European wave that heightened during the second half of the 1800s and early 1900s with people seeking greater economic opportunity. Immigration numbers went down drastically after overseas quotas were installed in 1924 and the Great Depression occurred shortly afterwards.

After these overseas quotas were eased in 1964, a second wave of immigration began that continues today which is predominantly Asian and Latin American in origin. Today, over 1 million immigrants enter into the US legally every year and obtain permanent legal status, matching the percentage of the European wave the late 1800s, and is considered the primary factor in the continued population growth in the US despite declining birth rates. Approximately 45% of legal status recipients are granted to those with immediate relatives who are US citizens, with another 21% also family based. 13% are adjusted from refugee or asylum status, 12% are sponsored by employers, and 5% are granted green cards by lottery. It is estimated a total of over 40 million legal immigrants currently live in the US, or 15% of the total US population, which also equals the percentage during the European wave of the late 1800s.

Additionally in 1964, quotas were, for the first time, imposed on those coming from countries in the Western Hemisphere into the US, such as Mexico, and, thus, illegal immigration began via illegal border crossings. Illegal border crossings through the southern border peaked in the year 2000, but it had been declining since then, especially after the Great Recession of 2007-2009. In 2007, right before the Great Recession, approximately 850,000 were apprehended by border patrol (down from 1,600,000 in 2000) and roughly the same number of individuals successfully evaded patrol agents and got into the US. Ten years later, in 2017, these figures were down to 300,000 and 150,000 respectively (also demonstrating an improved ratio on the effectiveness of border patrol).

However, an increase in family units and children in recent years have led to a large surge this year, bringing the total number of apprehensions up to 450,000 in first half of 2019 alone. Recent government crackdowns resulted in the controversial separation of parents and children in these families, but this practice was abandoned after international protest. Underage Central American asylum seekers fleeing violence in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatamala has been the primary source of this surge. 178,825 unaccompanied minors from these countries were apprehended at the border from 2011 to 2016, and studies now estimate that for every 10 homicides in these countries, 6 unaccompanied children flee to the US. These children, along with other children entering the country in recent years, have been granted legal status through congressional acts and presidential executive actions.

Illegal immigration also occurs via overstays of temporary legal status. While this, too, has declined the past ten years, from 850,000 such cases in 2007 to 300,000 such cases today, it should be noted that, due to the drastic decline in illegal border crossings from 2007 to 2018, overstays accounted for 67% of all illegal immigration in 2018 compared to 50% in 2007. However, this percentage changed in 2019 due to the surge in family migrants.

Overall, since the Great Recession, more illegal immigrants had been leaving the US than entering it every year, both due to the declining numbers of those attempting to enter and an increased number of deportations. It is estimated that 11 million illegal immigrants currently live in the US, a figure that has been on the slight decline since 2007, when it was at a peak of 12 million.

Roughly 8 million of these undocumented immigrants make up 5% of the total US workforce, and are primarily relegated to low skilled, low paying jobs, often victimized from exploitation and lack of worker protections that their legal counterparts enjoy. Furthermore, federal restrictions prohibit them from receiving many federal, state, and local public benefits that citizens and legal residents receive, although they are still entitled to medical assistance, immunizations, disaster relief, and k-12 education.
chaski On about 18 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#2New Post! Jun 03, 2019 @ 15:21:31
The answer to illegal immigration is two fold.

1. Prosecute (both criminally and civil) anyone and everyone who hires any illegal immigrant to do anything inside the borders of the USA.

2. Pass legislations that corrects all of the many problems with legal immigration into the USA.
Leon On August 16, 2019




San Diego, California
#3New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 15:50:03
@chaski Said

The answer to illegal immigration is two fold.

1. Prosecute (both criminally and civil) anyone and everyone who hires any illegal immigrant to do anything inside the borders of the USA.

2. Pass legislations that corrects all of the many problems with legal immigration into the USA.


Sounds good to me.

But I would add that we need to make it easier for people to immigrate who are fleeing violence and persecutory factors elsewhere, and who are willing to work low wage jobs that citizens despise. Unless we want to see prices increase on everything.

These are the same causes of the 1850-1924 wave.

Chain migration wasn’t a feature then, and probably shouldn’t be the primary feature now.
chaski On about 18 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#4New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 16:00:48
@Leon Said

I would add that we need to make it easier for people to immigrate who are fleeing violence and persecutory factors elsewhere, and who are willing to work low wage jobs that citizens despise. .


Yes.

I was overly vague in my Pass legislations that corrects all of the many problems... statement.

Possible terrible analogy to follow:

I view "it" going to a Rolling Stones concert at a big stadium... the tickets are hard to get, sold out early, the lines are supper long, there are guys outside scalping tickets...the show is starting...etc...

> Some people look and see that the loading dock is wide open, they just walk right in...
> Some people realize that they can get in to the stadium store, the slip past the bathroom entrance...
> Some of those people get caught and kicked out
> Some of those people never get caught and stay for the whole show.

> The concert people needed a better system for ticketing and better security... and probably a bunch of other stuff.
mrmhead On about 7 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#5New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 16:13:38
@Leon Said

Sounds good to me.

But I would add that we need to make it easier for people to immigrate who are fleeing violence and persecutory factors elsewhere, and who are willing to work low wage jobs that citizens despise. Unless we want to see prices increase on everything.

These are the same causes of the 1850-1924 wave.

Chain migration wasn’t a feature then, and probably shouldn’t be the primary feature now.


As far as fleeing persecution - Isn't that what the asylum system is for? The quick acceptance of immigrants, "with rules" - which I imagine leads to either applying for a visa.

As for the Bold part - I was noodling on this one for a bit
Wouldn't that legitimize a class or caste system for workers? Wouldn't that go against our principles of "Everyone is Equal"?

What would be the criteria for classifying a job as low-wage work?
I see big potentials for abuse by corporations.

This would kind of overlap into the Minimum Wage debate. I don't think every job should pay a "living wage".


Yes - cracking down on companies that hire illegals should help stem the draw.
Leon On August 16, 2019




San Diego, California
#6New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 16:42:39
@mrmhead Said

As far as fleeing persecution - Isn't that what the asylum system is for? The quick acceptance of immigrants, "with rules" - which I imagine leads to either applying for a visa.

As for the Bold part - I was noodling on this one for a bit
Wouldn't that legitimize a class or caste system for workers? Wouldn't that go against our principles of "Everyone is Equal"?

What would be the criteria for classifying a job as low-wage work?
I see big potentials for abuse by corporations.

This would kind of overlap into the Minimum Wage debate. I don't think every job should pay a "living wage".


Yes - cracking down on companies that hire illegals should help stem the draw.


Yes on the asylum, but Trump is trying to crack down on that, with the huge numbers coming from Central America. So it unfortunately needs to be addressed again.

As far as the low wage jobs, no matter what the minimum wage is, due to the law of economics, this will be the least desired work if given a choice, and probably not sustainable in terms of making a living off of. And right now, such jobs are not being filled by citizens. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a caste system, though, because nobody is being forced to remain in these jobs, and can get out of this system, by either working hard or getting an education. If not, then, indeed, that’s where regulation comes in. However, if these are undocumented workers, then such exploitation is much harder to detect and police.
DiscordTiger On about 9 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#7New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 20:01:18
@mrmhead Said

As far as fleeing persecution - Isn't that what the asylum system is for? The quick acceptance of immigrants, "with rules" - which I imagine leads to either applying for a visa.

As for the Bold part - I was noodling on this one for a bit
Wouldn't that legitimize a class or caste system for workers? Wouldn't that go against our principles of "Everyone is Equal"?

What would be the criteria for classifying a job as low-wage work?
I see big potentials for abuse by corporations.

This would kind of overlap into the Minimum Wage debate. I don't think every job should pay a "living wage".


Yes - cracking down on companies that hire illegals should help stem the draw.


what kind of work do you see as not worth being a living wage? And does your living wage mean supporting just one single adult or two adults and child (family)?
DiscordTiger On about 9 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#8New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 20:14:29
I do agree that a crackdown on employeers would be more effective in decreasing illegal imigration. If the jobs were not here, less would come.
Also the process is insanely difficult and expensive, there has to be a smarter way. Our country is not "full" there are plenty of land and resources, people are just crowded up in some areas. if people are willing to work they do it. Part of getting out of poverty is there being a livable wage though. A person working two jobs should be able to fully support their family. If a business can not afford to pay a fair wage for their workers (a resource) then they probably should fail at being in business. Owning a business is hard and expensive, paying your workers is just like paying the rent for the building. If you cant make enough money to pay the rent, your business is going to also fail. not making enough money to cover your costs (including labor)and have a profit means it is a s***ty business model.
mrmhead On about 7 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#9New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 20:20:38
@DiscordTiger Said

what kind of work do you see as not worth being a living wage? And does your living wage mean supporting just one single adult or two adults and child (family)?



Flipping burgers at a fast food joint
Walmart greeter
Cashier at a bowling alley handing out rental shoes
Busboy/dishwasher at your local family restaurant

I would set it at a single adult.
chaski On about 18 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#10New Post! Jun 04, 2019 @ 21:19:57
@DiscordTiger Said

I do agree that a crackdown on employeers would be more effective in decreasing illegal imigration. If the jobs were not here, less would come.


As you know, I say this often.

What I don't usually add is that "we" actually want "them" here.

Contrary to popular belief "they" are a value add to "our" economy.

"They" earn their wages and then spend their wages on

> renting houses/apartments, cars, furniture, etc
> buying houses, condos, cars, food, clothes, furniture, etc
> when they buy stuff they pay taxes.
> they also pay income taxes (state and federal) because this is one of the key steps to obtaining citizenship, which typically takes and illegal alien 7 to 10 years.
> they typically are not leaches on our healthcare system because normally they are afraid to go to hospitals as their illegal status might be found out.
> they work jobs that many (if not most) American won't
> they typically get paid far less than minimum wage, while much of the difference goes into the pocket scumbags who are taking advantage of the system, their lower wages help keep prices down (especially in construction & food).

etc

I could go on an on... but the people who will listen already know or suspect all that, and the ones who don't know or suspect it won't listen because it is easier to believe a continent lie and hate people than it is to use one's brain and actually get some facts on the situation.

And one only need ask one questions to really get to the core of it: If "we" don't want illegal immigration, why have Congress (the H.R. & Senate) and the President not sat down to honesty address the situation?

The answer is: because "we" actually want "them" here.
DiscordTiger On about 9 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#11New Post! Jun 05, 2019 @ 00:27:04
@mrmhead Said

Flipping burgers at a fast food joint
Walmart greeter
Cashier at a bowling alley handing out rental shoes
Busboy/dishwasher at your local family restaurant

I would set it at a single adult.


I agree those are pretty unskilled and “easy” in the sense a high school or college kid can do it. The hours might suck as restaurants do want peeps working day hours when they would be in school...which probably means retirees or those looking for supplemental income. Those are not bad jobs. We still need that work done and it’s “unskilled” pay can reflect that.

In today’s economy one adult might still need $10-15 an hour to live. Even a cheap a** one bedroom apartment is out of price range for less than 40hrs work at 10-15.
I will give the assumption the wage should be livable at 40, and if someone wants to work part time that is on them to be “short”.

Min wage was just held so low for so long it’s going to take a huge jump to catch up. And it does leave peeps in the middle a little messes up. A burger flipper and a paramedic should not be both being making 15. The paramedics needs more than 15. Since they have skills. (Assumes 15 is the new min livable ). So they need a compensation bump.
I know it will f*** over a lot of budgets, but resources cost money.

So you’re unskilled set could be raised to 10, knowing those jobs are not meant to be livable.

Edited to be a little more clear. But it’s still fuzzy and probably a derailment sorry.
DiscordTiger On about 9 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#12New Post! Jun 05, 2019 @ 00:31:06
I actually think full time should be 35 hours not 40. But that is a slightly different conversation based on productivity and see where it will be a harder adjustment to America’s “work culture”. So I probably won’t get a lot of agreement in that big of a change. Especially in determining what is “livable”.
mrmhead On about 7 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#13New Post! Jun 05, 2019 @ 01:15:02
@DiscordTiger Said

I agree those are pretty unskilled and “easy” in the sense a high school or college kid can do it. The hours might suck as restaurants do want peeps working day hours when they would be in school...which probably means retirees or those looking for supplemental income. Those are not bad jobs. We still need that work done and it’s “unskilled” pay can reflect that.

In today’s economy one adult might still need $10-15 an hour to live. Even a cheap a** one bedroom apartment is out of price range for less than 40hrs work at 10-15.
I will give the assumption the wage should be livable at 40, and if someone wants to work part time that is on them to be “short”.

Min wage was just held so low for so long it’s going to take a huge jump to catch up. And it does leave peeps in the middle a little messes up. A burger flipper and a paramedic should not be both being making 15. The paramedics needs more than 15. Since they have skills. (Assumes 15 is the new min livable ). So they need a compensation bump.
I know it will f*** over a lot of budgets, but resources cost money.

So you’re unskilled set could be raised to 10, knowing those jobs are not meant to be livable.

Edited to be a little more clear. But it’s still fuzzy and probably a derailment sorry.


Yes, I was thinking more on that ... "Tiers" of minimum wage?

As you expand from burger flipper to floor mopper and stock boy, you become qualified to apply for ass't manager. And with that job you are at "1 person" living wage. ..

Something like that.

As a PFA - 2yr college or 3 yr experience gets "1 person" mlw
4 yr college, 6yr exp gets you 2mlw .... and so on ...?

But that sounds way too much like ...socialism, communism? what economic systems dictate that?

... as a side bar on the same subject: I've occasionally wondered if there is a "fair" CEO rate based on average wage of employee (sliced and diced of course) and number of employees and of course performance- and then the economic system would have an equation to determine the CEO pay on down.... the "Economic System" could be tweaked occasionally to encourage employment, encourage retirement ...?
Leon On August 16, 2019




San Diego, California
#14New Post! Jun 05, 2019 @ 03:20:38
@mrmhead Said

Flipping burgers at a fast food joint
Walmart greeter
Cashier at a bowling alley handing out rental shoes
Busboy/dishwasher at your local family restaurant

.


Agreed. Some jobs are meant to be stepping stones to motivate you towards something better, not meant to bring home the bacon. Notice how teenagers don’t work anymore?
Leon On August 16, 2019




San Diego, California
#15New Post! Jun 05, 2019 @ 03:22:29
And since when did this thread turn from immigration to minimum wage? That was supposed to be another episode of this series.

Oh well, it just makes one less week to have to do this.
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