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chaski On about 13 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#31New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:16:39
@nooneinparticular Said

Gucci's god awful black sweater comes to mind. They even had to apologize and recall them due to the backlash.



Hmmm.... accidental? Probably.

Should they have known better? Absolutely.

Should they have been publicly called out on their blunder? Absolutely.

Should they have apologized? Absolutely.

Should they be forgiven? Yes, and probably have been forgiven by the market place; i.e. consumers at large.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#32New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:23:09
@DiscordTiger Said

Yeah, the process is slow and will never be perfect. Some things are getting better though.

I am ok with judging people, I don't think we can, or should totally escape that. I just feel better about judgements that are based on people's choices or actions, than things they literally have no control over.

Like my father in law (your average WASP) started dating and (I think they even married) a black woman a few years after my mother in law died.. My husbands family was all in a tizzy over it. His dad and the woman came to visit us, and she told me we were the only ones that even tried to be nice to her. I personally wasn't happy with the whole situation, but my level of civil is apparently a lot "nicer" than others, that's fine.

Now in that case, the judgements of her were extreme when you think about things she can control and what were "fair". Like I'm totally down with judging her and even treating her with suspicion for being a crack whore. (literal rap sheet for crack possession and prostitution) but if your treating poorly her that way just because she is black that is not the same.
Their whole relationship thing ended up being a bad scene, but it was interesting in how race played a factor in amplifying others some behaviors and reactions.


Yeah I get that. We should all have the right to judge others. What the criteria is for judging another is personal and really no one's wrong per se, and at the end of the day we all have our preferences. Like, I wouldn't judge someone for being arrested for possession and prostitution, but I completely understand why you would. Neither of us is right, we're just different.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#33New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:23:19
@Eaglebauer Said

I also completely disagree with this. You should not be ashamed of mistakes. You should accept that you are flawed and will make them, and you should be ashamed if you do not learn from them.

Let me paint it like this:

A little girl grows up in a house where black people are referred to as "N*****". She is never taught any differently. When she goes to school, she begins calling black people by that name.

Should she be ashamed, having never had the opportunity to know any different? A black person who is called that word by her would be upset...very reasonably and understandably upset and I wouldn't question why they were upset at all. She did it...she upset that person...but she shouldn't be ashamed of doing it because she doesn't know anything different.

If she is made to understand that that word hurts people and offends them and she still uses it knowing full well that it is offensive, then she should be ashamed. Until then, she is actually innocent although her action has caused offense in someone else.

I'm simply not going to budge on this.


I think where the problem is, what happens when girl refuses to learn, and says things like, "but my friend doesn't mind when I do it." or " i don't mean it as an insult, its just a thing we say" or "but rappers do it all the time, why do i matter"."its, just a word get over it", "I have black person in my family, i get to say it." " I only say it to people that deserve it"

you and i don't disagree on principle. people are slow learners and that complicates things.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#34New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:28:30
@chaski Said

Hmmm.... accidental? Probably.

Should they have known better? Absolutely.

Should they have been publicly called out on their blunder? Absolutely.

Should they have apologized? Absolutely.

Should they be forgiven? Yes, and probably have been forgiven by the market place; i.e. consumers at large.


I don't disagree, but people will always vote with their wallets and their beliefs, so whatchu gonna do really. The scapegoating of video games for violence is something I have never agreed with, but I'm not going to hold it against the people who decide not to buy certain things because of those beliefs. It's their money and they can do what they want with it, even if I think their reasoning is ridiculous.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#35New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:29:34
@nooneinparticular Said

Yeah I get that. We should all have the right to judge others. What the criteria is for judging another is personal and really no one's wrong per se, and at the end of the day we all have our preferences. Like, I wouldn't judge someone for being arrested for possession and prostitution, but I completely understand why you would. Neither of us is right, we're just different.



so there was like a 40 year age difference and the charges were recent.

So I was concerned for him. I also knew he really didnt have money, so if she was gold digging she was bad at it. So I thought she deserved a chance to make him happy. His daughter was more concerned about the charges, because she was a lot closer (physically) and saw more red flags. My other crazy sister in law heard the "black" part (before we even knew about her legal issues) and basically disowned him immediately.


Side note....why do o feel the need to justify my response? ugh...race issues are hard. and they require a lot of self-refelction and that sucks. easier to not think about it
chaski On about 13 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#36New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:36:16
@nooneinparticular Said

I don't disagree, but people will always vote with their wallets and their beliefs, so whatchu gonna do really. The scapegoating of video games for violence is something I have never agreed with, but I'm not going to hold it against the people who decide not to buy certain things because of those beliefs. It's their money and they can do what they want with it, even if I think their reasoning is ridiculous.


My only problem is when people are selectively held accountable.

Example:

Paula Dean was pretty much professionally s***-canned for admitting that in her past she acted in what is now perceived to be a racist manner. It didn't matter that she admitted it, it didn't matter that it was in the past, and it didn't matter that she apologized.

Others have done far worse, IMO, and have essentially let off the proverbial hook.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#37New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:40:18
@DiscordTiger Said

so there was like a 40 year age difference and the charges were recent.

So I was concerned for him. I also knew he really didnt have money, so if she was gold digging she was bad at it. So I thought she deserved a chance to make him happy. His daughter was more concerned about the charges, because she was a lot closer (physically) and saw more red flags. My other crazy sister in law heard the "black" part (before we even knew about her legal issues) and basically disowned him immediately.


Side note....why do o feel the need to justify my response? ugh...race issues are hard. and they require a lot of self-refelction and that sucks. easier to not think about it


Didn't think I was trying to justify your response. I thought I was just trying to say my opinion in regards to it. Sorry if that came off as anything else.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#38New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:46:55
@chaski Said

My only problem is when people are selectively held accountable.

Example:

Paula Dean was pretty much professionally s***-canned for admitting that in her past she acted in what is now perceived to be a racist manner. It didn't matter that she admitted it, it didn't matter that it was in the past, and it didn't matter that she apologized.

Others have done far worse, IMO, and have essentially let off the proverbial hook.


The public is fickle and people choose which battles they want to fight. It sucks and it's hypocritical, but it's true.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#39New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:50:05
@DiscordTiger Said

I think where the problem is, what happens when girl refuses to learn



This right here.

Yes.

This is exactly my point.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#40New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 16:52:53
Let's go another step.

A group of people decides they are offended by homosexual displays of affection. By the logic being put forth here, that group can and SHOULD publicly shame two gay men for kissing in public. And those two gay men should be ashamed for making the mistake of offending them.

Or is it only certain kind of offense that are subject to that rule? If so, why? Why shouldn't we say that everyone who ever offends anyone should be ashamed to offend them regardless of the reason or whether or not they meant to do so? I mean...if the end result is all we are using as the ruler here and intention isn't important, it should apply whenever anyone takes offense to something. The end result in someone offending another person by perceived racism by that yard stick is then identical to someone being offended by homosexuality, isn't it? The result in both cases is that someone is offended, right?

Where does the buck stop?
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#41New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 17:07:52
@nooneinparticular Said

Didn't think I was trying to justify your response. I thought I was just trying to say my opinion in regards to it. Sorry if that came off as anything else.



No you were fine. It's all about me. I just observed my thoughts out loud. I;ve been doing that all morning. A recent change to my routine and less sleep has me a little "off"
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#42New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 17:13:09
@Eaglebauer Said

Let's go another step.

A group of people decides they are offended by homosexual displays of affection. By the logic being put forth here, that group can and SHOULD publicly shame two gay men for kissing in public. And those two gay men should be ashamed for making the mistake of offending them.

Or is it only certain kind of offense that are subject to that rule? If so, why? Why shouldn't we say that everyone who ever offends anyone should be ashamed to offend them regardless of the reason or whether or not they meant to do so? I mean...if the end result is all we are using as the ruler here and intention isn't important, it should apply whenever anyone takes offense to something. The end result in someone offending another person by perceived racism by that yard stick is then identical to someone being offended by homosexuality, isn't it? The result in both cases is that someone is offended, right?

Where does the buck stop?


Does it fall under a hate crime for a protected class? If so then the group can still choose to publicly shame two homosexual men, but they might be charged as a result. So the buck stops at the law. If it doesn't fall under that, then while publicly shaming them might be socially unacceptable in some circles, nothings stopping them from doing it. As long as they accept that some people might view the group as homophobic a*****es as a result.

As to the two homosexual men's shame, that's something they should decide for themselves. If they believe they did nothing wrong then that's their decision to make. There's a difference between saying someone has the right to publicly shame another and saying the recipient has to feel ashamed from it. Trump proves that every day in office. He seemingly feels no shame from all the public shaming he's gone through, as is his right, and the public gets to judge him for it, as is theirs.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#43New Post! Mar 19, 2019 @ 17:58:18
@chaski Said

Can you give a real world example of someone being ignorant of the social standards regarding racism and/or sexism AND being on some level held accountable for their accidental racism or accidental sexism?



Good point
Electric_Banana On February 05, 2024




, New Zealand
#44New Post! Mar 20, 2019 @ 00:34:26
@nooneinparticular Said

So, I've been watching conversations about racism and sexism through here and other places on the internet and one argument I found interesting is one that says essentially that 'the person didn't mean to be racist or sexist and so should be absolved of backlash'. My question to this defense is 'Does it really matter?' Suppose that you were stretching and accidentally cold clocked someone nearby. Does that person not have the right to be angry at you for doing so, even if it was an accident? Does it negate the fact that you cold clocked them and so no punishment or consequence should result from it?


As a rule of thumb defaming races or people with uncanny (but non-destructive)
differences needs to be avoided because we don't want to continue breeding generation after generation with a false-sense of empowerment for traits which don't merit any superiority whatsoever

but sometimes comments made are over-demonified

I go back to Rosanne Barr sometime back suggesting that her co-actor had ape-like features not realizing the co-actor wasn't purely Caucasian.

If she would've said she had rodent-like features Roseanne wouldn't have got hit as hard; especially if both co-stars razz each other like that on a normal basis.

I guess you could say you really shouldn't say anything stupid about anyone just to be safe but Roseanne is a good example of one slip of innocent stupidity tripped a problem that came at her from left-field

It's a fine balance; we don't want to establish a stigma against those different but we also don't want to incriminate otherwise good people when they make a mistake.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#45New Post! Mar 20, 2019 @ 15:34:54
@nooneinparticular Said

Does it fall under a hate crime for a protected class? If so then the group can still choose to publicly shame two homosexual men, but they might be charged as a result. So the buck stops at the law. If it doesn't fall under that, then while publicly shaming them might be socially unacceptable in some circles, nothings stopping them from doing it. As long as they accept that some people might view the group as homophobic a*****es as a result.


By your rules though, it doesn't matter if it falls under a hate crime. By the rules you set, whatever they intended is not important. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that the end result was someone getting offended and that makes the outcome just as bad and just as subject to recourse as a hate crime. I'm putting the rules you stated into play.

You can't say that intent or lack of intent is irrelevant and then invoke the law as your parameter when the law itself is very clear that intent or lack of intent absolutely matters.

Because if someone is accused of a hate crime and can reasonably show he did not intend a statement or action as an act of racism or whatever other hate crime he is accused of, he does not suffer legal recourse because he actually hasn't violated the law.

Lets play this out though. A gay man is told by a shop owner he is not going to serve him because he's gay. Believe it or not, in a lot of places in America....this is not a hate crime. The gay community is not a protected class under Federal law. My personal opinion is that it should be, but it's not.

But...even if it was...trying to publicly shame two gay men for kissing in public isn't illegal anywhere in the united states. It's totally within the law to state a backwards, bigoted, stupid opinion that "them gays shouldn't be kissin in the park and oughta be shamed uh themsleves." That's not what protected classes are protected from. A person can legally shout from the rooftops that he thinks all blacks are lazy and dishonest and use as many slurs as his empty, f***ed up little head desires. So I fail to see how the law even would factor in there. A group shaming men for kissing each other would not face charges at all. I'd think they were horrible people, but they wouldn't be doing anything illegal.

Your initial posts seem to suggest to me that in your mind, people have some kind of moral duty to publicly shame people who are perceived as racist. Not after they are sure a person is racist...just if they do something that seems racist, even if they aren't aware they are being seen as such. My question is, does that just apply to racism and if so, why just racism and not other kinds of offense? And if it does apply to others, is there a reasonable litmus on which kinds of offenses should be shamed and which shouldn't?

I understand people offended for other reasons are "free to" publicly call out and shame those who offend them, I am asking if you think they should the way you seem to think they should for perceived racism, and if not, why shouldn't they while certain other types of offended people should?

Quote:
As to the two homosexual men's shame, that's something they should decide for themselves. If they believe they did nothing wrong then that's their decision to make. There's a difference between saying someone has the right to publicly shame another and saying the recipient has to feel ashamed from it. Trump proves that every day in office. He seemingly feels no shame from all the public shaming he's gone through, as is his right, and the public gets to judge him for it, as is theirs.


Okay, but that isn't at all what you suggested when you said:

Quote:
I should be very ashamed of my mistakes. They are mistakes after all, and the only way I will learn from them is if I take those mistakes to heart as mistakes, feel shame for having done them, and endeavor to do better in the future. We learn from our mistakes by examining them honestly, not by downplaying their significance.

Own your actions as your own and either stand by your statements or endeavor to do better. Don't downplay them as things done in ignorance. I still did them. The fact that it was in ignorance does not change that.


You suggest here that people should be ashamed when they cause offense in others and that if it's done in ignorance, the fact that it was done so doesn't matter. All that matters is that they caused someone else to be offended, and if they aren't ashamed of that, they won't learn not to do it. Shame is the only way you learn not to hurt others? Really?
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