Does it matter?

@Eaglebauer Said

Okay, you got me. You should be very ashamed of your mistakes, even when you don't realize you've made them. Very ashamed. We should all publicly shame you.

@Eaglebauer Said

Also, this seems to go in a different direction from what your original post did. According to your original post, you ask if claiming you did not intend to be offensive is a legitimate defense or explanation. That if someone is made to understand they offended someone, saying that they didn't intend or realize their offense, you suggest that they are still subject to backlash after the fact. This is the main thing I disagree with, not being made to understand but that once they make it known they didn't mean to offend, they still deserve to be shamed. And in my opinion, they don't.

@nooneinparticular Said

Sure, if you wish. Kind of how free speech works after all. Me counter commenting on any hypothetical gripe anyone would have with me, does not erase the fact that the gripe they have still exists. I may or may not agree with that gripe, but that is simply another opinion on the matter, no more valid then any other. You are allowed to call me on stuff you think is wrong, just as I'm allowed a rebuttal or dismissal.

I should be very ashamed of my mistakes. They are mistakes after all, and the only way I will learn from them is if I take those mistakes to heart as mistakes, feel shame for having done them, and endeavor to do better in the future. We learn from our mistakes by examining them honestly, not by downplaying their significance.

Own mistakes as your own and endeavor to do better. Don't downplay them as things done in ignorance. I still did them. The fact that it was in ignorance does not change that.

@nooneinparticular Said

Most people don't mean to hurt others. Doesn't change the fact that they did or do. Most people don't intend to get into car accidents, doesn't change the fact that damage to both cars needs to be payed for. Most people don't intend to be racist or sexist. Doesn't change the fact that other people are hurt by those actions.

No one is owed forgiveness for transgressions. You can ask for it, but you aren't owed it, and you shouldn't expect it. Whether someone else chooses to forgive you or not, that's their business and theirs alone.

@nooneinparticular Said

Sure, but the questions 'does someone have the right to be childish', and 'should someone be childish' are two completely separate questions.

@nooneinparticular Said


From what I understand, such a defense seems to imply that a person expressed an opinion that others construed as racist without knowledge of the implications.

@nooneinparticular Said


I should be very ashamed of my mistakes. They are mistakes after all, and the only way I will learn from them is if I take those mistakes to heart as mistakes, feel shame for having done them, and endeavor to do better in the future. We learn from our mistakes by examining them honestly, not by downplaying their significance.

Own your actions as your own and either stand by your statements or endeavor to do better. Don't downplay them as things done in ignorance. I still did them. The fact that it was in ignorance does not change that.

@nooneinparticular Said

Most people don't mean to hurt others.

@Erimitus Said

Mike: Race, the way I learned it, is a categorization of humans based on physical characteristics. The three basic races are black, yellow and white. Further subdivisions are, for the most part arbitrary.


A racist believes that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. WE have been programmed by parents, peers, experience to believe certain things. We have learned our beliefs.


Accidental, as I understand it, means not planned, and unintended. I can see that in some cases programming is unintended.

Within a culture there are subcultures and those brought up in a raciest subculture are going, in many cases, to be racist. From their point of view there beliefs are correct. Those programmed by a non-racist subculture are not going to be racist. From their point of view they are correct.
________________________________________



Some people are racist

Racists say and do racist things.

Some people are not racist

Some non-racists may behave in a way that others may consider racist. Anything a person might say or do may be considered, by some other, to be offensive.


Crime, the way I am using the word here, means an illegal act. We are granted, with minimal constraints, freedom of speech. Should we not be allowed freedom of thought?


It is not a crime to believe.
It is not a crime to believe that one race is inferior or superior.
It is not a crime to believe that any one race is NOT inferior or superior.

There are laws and both racists and non-racists who break the laws are criminals. There is freedom of speech and as far as I know we also have freedom of thought.





People who believe that their race is inferior or superior and say so are not criminals. These people have a right to think as they want. It is, as I understand it, no law against believing.

A person who is not a raciest may unintentionally say something that others consider raciest. Others considering a person racist do not make that person a racist.



For many people being a racist is considered bad. For some people being a racist is considered good. When there is disagreement, as I see it, a civil discussion is in order. I see no advantage to punishing person you disagree with nor is there any advantage of rewarding those who agree. Rational argument may, I believe, increase the potential for agreement.

@chaski Said

"We" seem to have moved from the accidental insult to criminal activity, which are two entirely different things.


There is a legal concept: criminal negligence.

And Ignorantia juris non excusat "ignorance of the law excuses not".

Also "intent"... with one federal crime (Conflict of Interest) intent makes all the difference. If one commits the infraction without knowledge, then one has committed a misdemeanor crime... if one commits the infraction with knowledge, one has committed a felony offense. Other federal crimes require "intent"... no specific intent > no crime; specific intent = felony crime.

etc

@nooneinparticular Said

My only point is 'does ignorance of the social standards regarding racism and sexism excuse an individual for violating them'?

@Eaglebauer Said

I also completely disagree with this. You should not be ashamed of mistakes. You should accept that you are flawed and will make them, and you should be ashamed if you do not learn from them.

Let me paint it like this:

A little girl grows up in a house where black people are referred to as "N*****". She is never taught any differently. When she goes to school, she begins calling black people by that name.

Should she be ashamed, having never had the opportunity to know any different? A black person who is called that word by her would be upset...very reasonably and understandably upset and I wouldn't question why they were upset at all. She did it...she upset that person...but she shouldn't be ashamed of doing it because she doesn't know anything different.

If she is made to understand that that word hurts people and offends them and she still uses it knowing full well that it is offensive, then she should be ashamed. Until then, she is actually innocent although her action has caused offense in someone else.

I'm simply not going to budge on this.

@Eaglebauer Said

I have to disagree. Intent is a huge factor to me. If someone accidentally kills someone I love it will have a huge impact on me and be extremely difficult for me, but in my eyes it would be so much worse and so much harder to bear if I knew that someone killed a loved one intending to do so. One is horribly unfortunate. One is horribly evil. There is a big difference in my opinion.

Angelou's quote I totally agree with, but it illustrates my point well. If you know better, do better. If something is accidental, it can't be predicated on someone knowing better.

@chaski Said

Can you give a real world example of someone being ignorant of the social standards regarding racism and/or sexism AND being on some level held accountable for their accidental racism or accidental sexism?

@nooneinparticular Said

While I personally agree with that sentiment, you'll never get the majority of the public to agree to that way of thinking. As a society of social beings, we judge each other harshly and mercilessly. It may be s***ty, but it's also true. The benefit of the doubt is nice, but in regards to social judgements it has very rarely ever happened. It didn't with the Red Scare, it didn't with the Satanic Panic, and it hasn't happened now either. We as a people rush to judgement. About millennials and younger generations. About minorities. About both the pro and anti PC sides of this very debate. About all the political parties, and the people who support them. We judge each other, and that isn't going to change.