Determinism Vs Free will.

I have been torn between two philosophies of life :
1-That we are the product of our evmt and we can't change much/ if any about it.
2-That we get to chose who we want to be!
What do you think?

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I'm a compatibilist so I say a bit of both.

Likewise. I don't believe either really exists entirely independant of the other. If I had the same free will but had lived a different life, I'd have used use that free will to make different decisions than the ones I have made.

I have to agree with the mix above.
Yes we are a product of our environment but we can still make of our life what we will, either within that environment or by choosing to move to a more desirable environment in which we can grow in a way more favorable to our desires/hopes for life.

Genes dont make you who you are - only allow the body to form by giving it the materials.

I believe that we are free willed, for the most part, but we need other people in order to get anywhere...

...such as letting us work in their businesses

or

...acting as clients in our business if we start one of our own.

In a monetary-driven, Capitalist, society other people around you can position themselves to allow for openings so that you can get far ahead and succeed in life or they can position themselves like a wall and prevent you from getting anywhere.

So there would seem to be some sort of bias of the people as to how they 'let you' or 'don't let you.'

-Maybe you're not of the same race.
-or same sexuality.
-Don't salute the same flag.
-Have a different political agenda.
-Don't cater to popular religion.
-(Hypothetically) Maybe most are operated by an hive intelligence and forming walls that guide in you in an manner that best compliments the machine that is Earth.

If there were ever a new revolution among Capitalistic, Democratic, Monetary societies where in the world changed enough so that people were not as heavily dependent on the bias, or lack there of, of others to get ahead - freedom and free will would no longer be questionable.

Err sort of a bit of both. Like we do what we want but what we want is already determined if that makes sense?

Like I want to reply to this thread with this answer but I didn't chose the fact that I would end up having this answer and desire to post this. I don't think there is a determined end or anything like that but I think what happens is in a sense inevitable.

I kind of take Hobbes position on this (and, to be honest, most things).

I think we can choose to do what ever we like - within the performance constraints of the body we have available. I can choose to ignore this thread, post in it, write something rude in it, post a stupid pic of a donkey on a plastic willy - whatever I want - it's free will. Just depends how scared you are of the consequences of some choices within the context of retribution by others. That is what defines collective activity in a social context.

Free will is the ability to make choices between alternatives not solely based on compulsion or determinism and then to be able to volitionally act on the choices that have been made within the parameters of the possible and at least to some degree independent of constraints.

There are, of course, physical, social, and psychological constraints relevant to free will. Physical constraints such as chains, social constraints such as laws, psychological constrains such as compulsions or phobias all influence the ability to choose and act freely. So free will, if it exists at all, is not, cannot, be completely free.

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Determinism holds that all events are causally necessitated by past events and the laws of nature.

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Compatibilism holds that free will and determinism are compatible with each other.

Either all events are not necessitated by past events and the laws of nature or all events are necessitated by past events and the laws of nature.

How do Compatibilists resolve this apparent contradiction?

Ok, so how can I change the poll??

Don't think ya can. Dun dun dun.

But I think you'll find most people usually skip poll questions and answer directly in the thread.

For the most part, we are products of our genes and environment. However, that doesn't rule out the freedom to choose in life.

I agree with Leon (and pretty much everyone who has posted here) We are products of our environment, which drives our choices, but then those choices affect our environment as well, altering what choices we face next.

For example, if I was raised in a house with exquisite manners then those manners will be like second nature to me. I have to choose them each time in order to make them happen, but I mostly choose them unconsciously. I could choose to not use them. Compare that to a person who was not raised around manners at all and has to put forth the effort to choose manners, not only in the moment, but also choosing to watch others closely enough to learn the manners that were never taught. Chances are, that person is still not going to carry those manners as graciously as the person who was raised around them, but still makes a choice to use the best manners that he can. Now think of how the choices affect environment. The one with exquisite manners who chooses to use those manners will likely be noticed and probably offered opportunities. The guy with exquisite manners who chooses not to use them will come off as a total a** and likely not be offered many opportunities or will be offered some out of other people's fear of what he might do. He also will likely lack in friendships. The guy raised without manners who chooses to put forth the effort will have friends and some opportunities, though not as plentiful as the first guy and probably not as lucrative. It is doubtful he will be easily noticed as standing out from the crowd. The fourth guy, raised without manners and continuing to be oblivious to that fact will have a hard way to go in life, with few friends and few opportunities, and will be no the wiser regarding the choice he had in the matter.

All products of their environments, working within the constraints of their environments and altering their environments by their choices, which further affects their choices and those of the next generation.

I think too, but what do you think makes us believe in determinism and lose hope in change?



What about Sartre's free will??