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aquine On May 30, 2014
Psalm 2 = Rev 11:15


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Alice SPrings, Australia
#1New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:12:05
The following are articles discussing the assumptions that some scientists make in using dating techniques.

From my perspective these assumptions discount the validity of dating techniques entirely, especially when examining items known to be older than 1000-2000 years (or since documented evidence existed).

Carbon Dating - What Is It And How Does It Work?
This is how carbon dating works: Carbon is a naturally abundant element found in the atmosphere, in the earth, in the oceans, and in every living creature. C-12 is by far the most common isotope, while only about one in a trillion carbon atoms is C-14. C-14 is produced in the upper atmosphere when nitrogen-14 (N-14) is altered through the effects of cosmic radiation bombardment (a proton is displaced by a neutron effectively changing the nitrogen atom into a carbon isotope). The new isotope is called "radiocarbon" because it is radioactive, though it is not dangerous. It is naturally unstable and so it will spontaneously decay back into N-14 after a period of time. It takes about 5,730 years for half of a sample of radiocarbon to decay back into nitrogen. It takes another 5,730 for half of the remainder to decay, and then another 5,730 for half of what's left then to decay and so on. The period of time that it takes for half of a sample to decay is called a "half-life."

Radiocarbon oxidizes (that is, it combines with oxygen) and enters the biosphere through natural processes like breathing and eating. Plants and animals naturally incorporate both the abundant C-12 isotope and the much rarer radiocarbon isotope into their tissues in about the same proportions as the two occur in the atmosphere during their lifetimes. When a creature dies, it ceases to consume more radiocarbon while the C-14 already in its body continues to decay back into nitrogen. So, if we find the remains of a dead creature whose C-12 to C-14 ratio is half of what it's supposed to be (that is, one C-14 atom for every two trillion C-12 atoms instead of one in every trillion) we can assume the creature has been dead for about 5,730 years (since half of the radiocarbon is missing, it takes about 5,730 years for half of it to decay back into nitrogen). If the ratio is a quarter of what it should be (one in every four trillion) we can assume the creature has been dead for 11,460 year (two half-lives). After about 10 half-lives, the amount of radiocarbon left becomes too miniscule to measure and so this technique isn't useful for dating specimens which died more than 60,000 years ago. Another limitation is that this technique can only be applied to organic material such as bone, flesh, or wood. It can't be used to date rocks directly.
Carbon Dating - The Premise
Carbon dating is a dating technique predicated upon three things:
The rate at which the unstable radioactive C-14 isotope decays into the stable non-radioactive N-14 isotope,
The ratio of C-12 to C-14 found in a given specimen,
And the ratio C-12 to C-14 found in the atmosphere at the time of the specimen's death.
Carbon Dating - The Controversy
Carbon dating is controversial for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's predicated upon a set of questionable assumptions. We have to assume, for example, that the rate of decay (that is, a 5,730 year half-life) has remained constant throughout the unobservable past. However, there is strong evidence which suggests that radioactive decay may have been greatly accelerated in the unobservable past.1 We must also assume that the ratio of C-12 to C-14 in the atmosphere has remained constant throughout the unobservable past (so we can know what the ratio was at the time of the specimen's death). And yet we know that "radiocarbon is forming 28-37% faster than it is decaying,"2 which means it hasn't yet reached equilibrium, which means the ratio is higher today than it was in the unobservable past. We also know that the ratio decreased during the industrial revolution due to the dramatic increase of CO2 produced by factories. This man-made fluctuation wasn't a natural occurrence, but it demonstrates the fact that fluctuation is possible and that a period of natural upheaval upon the earth could greatly affect the ratio. Volcanoes spew out CO2 which could just as effectively decrease the ratio. Specimens which lived and died during a period of intense volcanism would appear older than they really are if they were dated using this technique. The ratio can further be affected by C-14 production rates in the atmosphere, which in turn is affected by the amount of cosmic rays penetrating the earth's atmosphere. The amount of cosmic rays penetrating the earth's atmosphere is itself affected by things like the earth's magnetic field which deflects cosmic rays. Precise measurements taken over the last 140 years have shown a steady decay in the strength of the earth's magnetic field. This means there's been a steady increase in radiocarbon production (which would increase the ratio).

And finally, this dating scheme is controversial because the dates derived are often wildly inconsistent. For example, "One part of Dima [a famous baby mammoth discovered in 1977] was 40,000 RCY [Radiocarbon Years], another was 26,000 RCY, and 'wood found immediately around the carcass' was 9,000-10,000 RCY." (Walt Brown, In the Beginning, 2001, p. 176)
Learn how scientists deal with these problems!
Footnotes:
D. R. Humphreys, J. R. Baumgardner, S. A. Austin, and A. A., Snelling, "Helium diffusion rates support accelerated nuclear decay," in Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism, R. Ivey, Ed., Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, PA, 2003. See also: Walt Brown, In the Beginning, 2001, p. 75, under "Constant Decay?"
Brown, ibid, p. 246.
These articles taken from: https://www.allaboutgod.com/

Radiometric Dating - A Brief Explanation
Radiometric dating is the primary dating scheme employed by scientists to determine the age of the earth. Radiometric dating techniques take advantage of the natural decay of radioisotopes. An isotope is one of two or more atoms which have the same number of protons in their nuclei, but a different number of neutrons. Radioisotopes are unstable isotopes: they spontaneously decay (emitting radiation in the process -- thus making them radioactive). They continue to decay going through various transitional states until they finally reach stability. For example, Uranium-238 (U238) is a radioisotope. It will spontaneously decay until it transitions into Lead-206 (Pb206). The numbers 238 and 206 represent these isotopes' atomic mass. The Uranium-238 radioisotope goes through 13 transitional stages before stabilizing into Lead-206 (U238 > Th234 > Pa234 > U234 > Th230 > Ra226 > Rn222 > Po218 > Pb214 > Bi214 > Po214 > Pb210 > Bi210 > Po210 > Pb206). In this instance, Uranium-238 is called the "parent" and Lead-206 is called the "daughter". By measuring how long it takes for an unstable element to decay into a stable element and by measuring how much daughter element has been produced by the parent element within a specimen of rock, scientists believe they are able to determine the age of the rock. This belief is based upon three significant assumptions.

Radiometric Dating - The Assumptions
Many of the ages derived by radiometric dating techniques are highly publicized. Nevertheless, the fundamental assumptions employed are not. Here are the three major assumptions for your consideration:
The rate of decay remains constant.
There has been no contamination (that is, no daughter or intermediate elements have been introduced or leeched from the specimen of rock).
We can determine how much daughter there was to begin with (if we assume there was no daughter to begin with, yet there was daughter at the formation of the rock, the rock would have a superficial appearance of age).
Are these foundational assumptions reasonable? Recent findings seem to indicate that though we ourselves have not been able to vary the decay rates by much in the laboratory, the decay rates may have been accelerated in the unobservable past [1]. If this were the case, the first assumption would be deemed unreasonable. This would completely upset our current standardized view of earth's history. Dr Carl Wieland summarizes the recent findings: "When uranium decays to lead, a by-product of this process is the formation of helium, a very light, inert gas which readily escapes from rock. Certain crystals called zircons, obtained from drilling into very deep granites, contain uranium which has partly decayed into lead. By measuring the amount of uranium and 'radiogenic lead' in these crystals, one can calculate that, if the decay rate has been constant, about 1.5 billion years must have passed. (This is consistent with the geologic 'age' assigned to the granites in which these zircons are found.) There is a significant amount of helium from that '1.5 billion years of decay' still inside the zircons. This is at first glance surprising, because of the ease with which one would expect helium (with its tiny, light, unreactive atoms) to escape from the spaces within the crystal structure.

These articles taken from: https://www.allaboutgod.com/
boxer On June 16, 2016

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, Zimbabwe
#2New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:14:58
Is anyone actually going to read and reply to this HUGE C&P, or should we all just make random posts with photos of aardvarks?

I betting you can guess which direction I'm heading.

Grrrl On June 01, 2014




, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:16:40
I clicked this expecting romance/dating tips. My bad.
Dark_Tink On December 30, 2018
<3 Boobie <3





, Canada
#4New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:18:20
Crap. I thought this was a thread about dating techniques and how they can sometimes go in the wrong direction and the date turns out crappy.
boxer On June 16, 2016

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, Zimbabwe
#5New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:20:50
@Grrrl Said

I clicked this expecting romance/dating tips. My bad.



@Dark_Tink Said

Crap. I thought this was a thread about dating techniques and how they can sometimes go in the wrong direction and the date turns out crappy.



I'll be needing pictures of aardvarks from both of you.
Dark_Tink On December 30, 2018
<3 Boobie <3





, Canada
#6New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:24:29
@boxer Said

I'll be needing pictures of aardvarks from both of you.





Grrrl On June 01, 2014




, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:27:26
@boxer Said

I'll be needing pictures of aardvarks from both of you.





I demand extra points for also being dating related.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


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Here and there,
#8New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:31:43
"However, there is strong evidence which suggests that radioactive decay may have been greatly accelerated in the unobservable past"

That's pretty funny.
steve70 On March 20, 2021




, United Kingdom
#9New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:57:25
i could have found this interesting if it didn't come from a web site that is self serving
here is a snippet from a different site
Many scientists, including Marie and Pierre Curie, Ernest Rutherford and George de Hevesy, have attempted to influence the rate of radioactive decay by radically changing the pressure, temperature, magnetic field, acceleration, or radiation environment of the source. No experiment to date has detected any change in rates of decay.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100915171534.htm
so far from what i've read is carbon dating is good for 50000-60000 years
i'd happily talk science with you without the religious nonsense
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#10New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 22:59:34
@steve70 Said

i could have found this interesting if it didn't come from a web site that is self serving
here is a snippet from a different site
Many scientists, including Marie and Pierre Curie, Ernest Rutherford and George de Hevesy, have attempted to influence the rate of radioactive decay by radically changing the pressure, temperature, magnetic field, acceleration, or radiation environment of the source. No experiment to date has detected any change in rates of decay.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100915171534.htm
so far from what i've read is carbon dating is good for 50000-60000 years
i'd happily talk science with you without the religious nonsense


It's worth noting that the only sites that criticize carbon or radiometric dating are those dedicated to Bible defense.
chaski On April 19, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#11New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 23:03:30
@aquine Said

The following are articles discussing the assumptions that some scientists make in using dating techniques.

From my perspective these assumptions discount the validity of dating techniques entirely, especially when examining items known to be older than 1000-2000 years (or since documented evidence existed).

Carbon Dating - What Is It And How Does It Work?
This is how carbon dating works: Carbon is a naturally abundant element found in the atmosphere, in the earth, in the oceans, and in every living creature. C-12 is by far the most common isotope, while only about one in a trillion carbon atoms is C-14. C-14 is produced in the upper atmosphere when nitrogen-14 (N-14) is altered through the effects of cosmic radiation bombardment (a proton is displaced by a neutron effectively changing the nitrogen atom into a carbon isotope). The new isotope is called "radiocarbon" because it is radioactive, though it is not dangerous.




Sorry, I had to stop here because this is an irrelevant statement that is not even remotely applicable to the the topic of radio carbon dating.
jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#12New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 23:06:38
@aquine Said
For example, "One part of Dima [a famous baby mammoth discovered in 1977] was 40,000 RCY [Radiocarbon Years], another was 26,000 RCY, and 'wood found immediately around the carcass' was 9,000-10,000 RCY." (Walt Brown, In the Beginning, 2001, p. 176)


Even the Creationism Wiki admits this is false:
https://creationwiki.org/Vollosovitch_and_Dima_mammoths_yielded_inconsistent_C14_dates_(Talk.Origins)

The dates come from different mammoths. The reference cited by Brown and cribbed by Hovind likely refers only to a Fairbanks mammoth, which Brown also mentions (Péwé 1975, 30). The 15,380 and 21,300 BP dates come from separate mammoths, and it is noted that the 21,300 date is invalid because it comes from a hide soaked in glycerin.
It is agreed that this is an error on Brown's part, but once again errors occur on both sides all the time. It is likely one can find errors in the work of any writer, particularly when one is looking for them.
It is uncertain what is Brown's source for the 29,500 and 44,000 dates.
boxer On June 16, 2016

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Banned



, Zimbabwe
#13New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 23:08:42
This thread needs more aardvark!!
And what better than an aardvark post filled with scientific facts like these!

jonnythan On August 02, 2014
Bringer of rad mirth


Deleted



Here and there,
#14New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 23:09:54
My grandpa was an aardvark. He won a Grammy for zydeco music.
boxer On June 16, 2016

Deleted
Banned



, Zimbabwe
#15New Post! Jan 28, 2013 @ 23:11:11
@jonnythan Said

My grandpa was an aardvark. He won a Grammy for zydeco music.


Was he the one elected to the Senate?
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