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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#1New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 00:59:12
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205

https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
Tar On April 28, 2014




San Antonio, Texas
#2New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 01:33:17
@GreatestIam2 Said

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205

https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL



Asking if we do "evil" is acknowledging that you believe "evil" exists thus morality exists. In this train of thought, "evil" to one may not be "evil" to another so how do you debate on evil when the goal posts are being moved? You have no standard

Take a christian extremist who says that to kill an abortion provider is OK
Take a muslim extremist who says that to kill a heretic is OK
Take a secularist who says to kill in self defense is OK

which is REALLY ok?



each subscribe to their own definition of "evil". In the end, does it matter by any other metrics besides social cohesion and general happiness of society at large?
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#3New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 17:13:49
@Tar Said

Asking if we do "evil" is acknowledging that you believe "evil" exists thus morality exists. In this train of thought, "evil" to one may not be "evil" to another so how do you debate on evil when the goal posts are being moved? You have no standard

Take a christian extremist who says that to kill an abortion provider is OK
Take a muslim extremist who says that to kill a heretic is OK
Take a secularist who says to kill in self defense is OK

which is REALLY ok?



each subscribe to their own definition of "evil". In the end, does it matter by any other metrics besides social cohesion and general happiness of society at large?


Probably not but the O P is to you not to all the others you mentioned. It is your view I seek. Not the whole worlds.

Yours is a good way of not having to thing too hard on the question though.

Regards
DL
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 18:24:05
@GreatestIam2 Said

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205

https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL


It's called free will exercised correctly.

Of course it depends n what you call doing evil, but I have known hundreds of people who did no evil, and I doubt they do any now. If they can, you can, with God's help it's not really all that hard.

Apart from that it is only deliberately and persistently ding evil that God objects to, and that includes doing evil when you can't be bothered to check if it is evil or not.

God only expects us to do the best we can, and as long as it is a genuine effort following the correct guidelines, then He accepts your best. That is the point of His son's willing sacrifice.

You often speak of what the Jews believe, well don;t forget that Jesus was a faithful Jew, as were the Apostles. Jesus came to bring the Jews back to God, and when the majority refused to follow, eh took the faithful out of Judaism and his Father rejected it. The true, faithful Jews became the Christian Congregation.

Who cares what unfaithful Jews believe, and there is no other kind any more. The same, of course, goes for unfaithful Christians, who are the vast majority. What they say does not matter either.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 18:36:55
@GreatestIam2 Said


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.



To answer this bit separately. It is not that mankind has freewill which is the problem, or God would never have given it us. It is the way that free will is used that is the problem.

Is the manufacturer of a gun at fault because someone uses it to murder rather than to hunt for food?

Is the manufacturer of a car at fault because some irresponsible drivers use them so badly and dangerously that they kill people on the roads?

Is the manufacturer of the Alcohol at fault because people abuse it and make themselves sick or kill others?

No, and neither is God at fault because He gave us free will. It is those of us who choose to use that free will wrongly that are at fault, and Adam was the first of those.

Having a choice is never wrong, but making the wrong choice, when we have sufficient information to help us make the right one is. If God gives us the ability to choose, and more than enough information to allow us to choose correctly, how can He be to blame if we ignore His advice?

Adam and Eve were given one simple command. God made it very clear to Adam what would happen if they disobeyed that one simple command. There is no way that He can be blamed when they took the wrong curse and disobeyed, and not only that but compounded the error by not admitting their error and asking forgiveness.

Your feeble attempts to blame God for your own weakness, and the weakness of others, will never succeed. Be strong. Learn to exercise your free will responsibly, as I hope you drive your car, assuming that you have one, or your gun if you own one.
BozieFozie On May 19, 2022
Life's a Beach





Paradise, Florida
#6New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 20:09:02
I have no idea what this thread is about.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Jul 31, 2012 @ 20:25:18
@BozieFozie Said

I have no idea what this thread is about.



It's just one of DL's usual rants, lol. Trying to blame God because we make wrong choices. Some people are frightened stiff of having to take responsibility for the choices they make, they blame God saying "God made me this way" completely ignoring the fact that they chose to take that course.

In my mind they are moral cowards, the worst kind of coward of all.
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#8New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 16:45:45
@MadCornishBiker Said

It's called free will exercised correctly.



Thanks for spewing your hate filled and evil remarks.
You have learned well from your God.
I see that you certainly cannot help but do evil more than most.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#9New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 16:47:51
@BozieFozie Said

I have no idea what this thread is about.


It explains why you have done some of the evil you have done.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#10New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 16:50:06
@MadCornishBiker Said

It's just one of DL's usual rants, lol. Trying to blame God because we make wrong choices. Some people are frightened stiff of having to take responsibility for the choices they make, they blame God saying "God made me this way" completely ignoring the fact that they chose to take that course.

In my mind they are moral cowards, the worst kind of coward of all.


I guess you are too stuck in your mind set to have noticed that I blame, if that is the right word, and not your imaginary God.
Learn how to read and stop lying.

Regards
DL
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018




Somewhere in, California
#11New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 16:55:09
@MadCornishBiker Said

The true, faithful Jews became the Christian Congregation.


Only according to a Mad dude's opinion!

@MadCornishBiker Said

Who cares what unfaithful Jews believe, and there is no other kind any more. The same, of course, goes for unfaithful Christians, who are the vast majority. What they say does not matter either.


..and who cares what a Mad dude believes!?

Meaning that what you say does not matter either.

+1 (Neo)
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018




Somewhere in, California
#12New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 16:59:34
@MadCornishBiker Said

Your feeble attempts to blame God for your own weakness, and the weakness of others, will never succeed. Be strong. Learn to exercise your free will responsibly, as I hope you drive your car, assuming that you have one, or your gun if you own one.


..and your feeble attempts to whitewash your bible God are also lousy at best!
wirelessguru1 On November 01, 2018




Somewhere in, California
#13New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 17:03:35
@MadCornishBiker Said

It's just one of DL's usual rants, lol. Trying to blame God because we make wrong choices. Some people are frightened stiff of having to take responsibility for the choices they make, they blame God saying "God made me this way" completely ignoring the fact that they chose to take that course.

In my mind they are moral cowards, the worst kind of coward of all.


Well they (we) should indeed blame themselves (ourselves) for any and all of their (our) actions and reactions because God = I AM.

Which means that it is fully inclusive of God. Wake up!

+1 (Neo)
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#14New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 19:20:23
@GreatestIam2 Said

Thanks for spewing your hate filled and evil remarks.
You have learned well from your God.
I see that you certainly cannot help but do evil more than most.

Regards
DL



Nothing hate filled about my remarks, it is yours that tend that way.
MadCornishBiker On January 14, 2014

Banned



St Columb Road, United Kingdom
#15New Post! Aug 01, 2012 @ 19:24:50
@GreatestIam2 Said

I guess you are too stuck in your mind set to have noticed that I blame, if that is the right word, and not your imaginary God.
Learn how to read and stop lying.

Regards
DL



I have read what you wrote, and you were blaming God, who is far from imaginary.

True you did not say it in so many words, but the point is that you were saying that if God created us He is to blame, none of which made any sense, any more than your usual rants do. Since you were saying that if God created us He would be to blame, and He did create us, the you were blaming God.

You tel me to learn to read. Maybe you should learn to think clearly about what you are implying with what you say.

One thing I never do is lie, because that would displease the God I serve more than anything else I could do. Remember that next time yu think of making such a stupid claim.
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