Brexit

As I have already said, this is just going around in circles. Nothing new.

Brexit is an unprecedented act of national self harm. All pain, no gain. Driven by little englanders and those seeking to evade any over-seeing of their financial shenanigans.

OK pretty much disagree with everything you have said but that's fine. One thing i do agree with you though and that is that Bunyip Bend is a bonza place to live

PS - we have some great fishing spots nearby.

Fine.

Here a good article on sovereignty etc etc etc.....


HERE


Just to add, pretty limp just to say you disagree. Spell it out, give reasons. Explain what the UK will gain. Tell me where I am wrong.

Any Costa's in Bunyip Bend? Fortunately the Lockdown is over for now and the cold park bench has yielded to the warm interior of my favorite coffee shop. Enjoying a cappucinno and a toastie before beginning my stint at the Oxfam Shop, amid the vinyl records, dvds, cd's while listening to my music......maybe Highway 61 Revisted or Blood on the Tracks.

Maybe you have to live here to experience the reality of Brexit and the little englander mindset. As hate crimes steadily rise, the pretty random observations and opinions of many close friends and acquaintances, sometimes literally beginning with.. "I'm not a racist but......" Just one example, of a guy I often meet at the bus stop and chat to. A nice old guy who likes his pint. I just happened to mention that I had seen a young mother crossing the road when the lights were against her. She was pushing a pram and puffing on a cigarette. My own observation revolved around the fact that when an on-coming bus beeped her she simply stuck her fingers up and wandered on. My mates response? "And I bet you what" he began and I knew immediately what was coming, "I bet she was a foreigner." Why say this? Did he actually think such behaviour is beyond any "true blue Brit"? Truly, more examples......too many blackies, never saw a blackie in my day........I won't go to that fish n chip shop, its foreign owned.....And seeing some old mates who voted Leave, reading matter in hand - The Sun, The Daily Express........and hearing them bemoan "french fishermen" and being "too soft" these days......of immigrants coming over here to "get on the gravy train."

Oh, we are all entitled to our point of view alright, but raise more complex issues on Forums and its more often than not "suck it up loser", "get over it, you lost" and no attempt to address the issues or present cogent arguments.

To be honest, sick of it. Alienated in my own country.

Lost opportunities for the young.....


Read here


The economic forecasts of virtually every analyst is bleak about the financial impact of Brexit. If interested they can be found with ease.

There is no upside.

"Unleash the potential" is a slogan of "Global Britain"! The reality is that for over 40 years (while eurosceptics have drivelled on about straight bananas and one size condoms) our economy has had the incentive that if the best was produced, the cheapest, then no tariffs or quotas could prevent sales to a nearby market of over half a billion people. Frictionless trade. The UK has enjoyed that potential....a REAL one, not la la land promises and dreams.

That has now gone. Our 50,000 new pen pushers are trying to learn about the millions of new documents and declarations needed, deal or no deal. The old advantages sold for the lure of cheaper soy sauce from Japan! (A claim that actually had to be withdrawn when the FACTS were presented)




PS. I had to change the Link as the article was not available for non-subscribers. But there were many more available!

First up it's not a matter of anyone being 'right' or 'wrong'. So often in politics these things are subjective. Secondly, I have many times in the past discussed what I think the advantages to the UK will be post Brexit. I really don't want to go over them yet again.

There are a great many aspects of leaving that can't be statistically measured. One of the few areas that can be so measured, at least to some extent, is the economic side though this won't be able to be reasonably assessed for at least 5-8 years (from January next year). The financial impact of Covid-19 will of course muddy the waters.

Anyway, trying to divine the future at this point in time is even more problematic than usual as no one yet knows if there will be a deal before the transition period ends and what such a deal might look like. No one knows if - in the event of the UK leaves under WTO terms - a deal might be struck next year or the year after, and again what such a deal might look like. At the moment there are so many variables, so many unknowns that I think predictions are largely worthless.

Oh, and no Costas down our way but I'm sure there's still good coffee to be had.

Somebody isn't keeping entirely abreast of what's going on.

It is true that Hungary and Poland have threatened to vote against the seven year budget and pandemic recovery fund worth about 1,8 trillion Euro. Most of it has been agreed upon but at the moment it requires unanimous agreement to sign off on it.

Hungary and Poland are blocking the budget and recovery plan because a new rule is being put in place which says that member states who do not comply with the rule of law may see their EU funding restricted. Other rules are on their way to restrict member states voting rights if they refuse to obey the rule of law.

Now, we know that under EU rules unanimous agreement is required on all matters of law, but some matters such as budget and funding programmes are outside of this and can be passed by majority vote. This means that if a majority of countries - which, there is in this case - like the new measures they can pass them. This is likely to go into effect soon and the budget and recovery package will be able to go ahead whether Hungary and Poland like it or not.

Hungary's increasingly authoritarian ruler Victor Orban is accused of interfering with the local judiciary and similar meddling is reported in Poland. This means that these two countries fall well within the new rules.

Daniel Kelleman, a professor of political science at Rutgers University is an expert on EU politics and law. He explained recently for Politico that attempting to grind the EU to a halt, vetoing everything and anything that requires unanimity just won't work.

He explained that one of the core underlying principles of the EU treaties is that member states are supposed to respect a principle called "Sincere Co-operation". However, that system starts to break down when you have bad faith actors. All states try to push the envelope on EU rules from time to time but here we have truly authoritarian regimes that are trying to take advantage of those expectations of sincere co-operation. There is no point in trying to build consensus in a democratic system with those who are seeking to undermine democracy.


(included for general interest, not as a citation)
Principles of Sincere Co-opeation

Unless Poland and Hungary back off and decide to start behaving with "Sincere Co-operation", then they'll just have to be bypassed,

The budget and recovery package will pass. It just might take a little longer than hoped for if other measures have to be taken.

I think it is a matter of being reasonably certain that Brexit is an unprecedented act of self-harm. Sorry, there are 37 pages to this thread , I came to it late, and I am not prepared to trawl through it looking for where you have spelt out the advantages. You have certainly provided none in our exchanges, and basically you have avoided addressing the various cogent arguments, points and articles that both Jenny and myself have posted. Post the advantages now. Surely it will not take too long.

Otherwise, goodbye.

Hi, sorry, that came out wrong. I never meant to bark an order! I went to edit but it was too late.

Shady doesn't talk to me. He doesn't like it when a woman knows more about football than he does.

We also clashed some time ago, after he made sexist comments that I took him to task on. He's never gotten over it.

He was also responsible for another regular poster on here, a nice guy named Geoff (he and I were on first name terms) whose screenie I can't remember now, who was Scottish, leaving the site. Shady started dictating to Geoff about what he was and wasn't allowed to call his own country.

So, Shady won't talk to me any more which is a bit childish... well, quite childish actually, but there you go. He's the only one who can do anything about that.

I get a free pass at making my points because of his self-imposed sulk which is disappointing for me because the whole idea of discussion forums is meant to be about the exchange of opinions and arguments.... even if the exchanges are a bit sparky..... But hey-ho. If an echo chamber is what he wants that's something else only he can do anything about.

The Ancient Greek philosopher Zeno articulated a series of paradoxes, one of the most famous being the ‘dichotomy’ or ‘race course’ paradox. In order to reach a destination, a runner must first reach the half-way point, but to reach that point must first get a quarter of the way there, and to do that must get an eighth of the way there, and so on. Since this generates an infinite sequence that never quite adds up to the full distance, it is impossible for the runner ever to reach the destination point.

Brexit has often felt like being stuck on such a never-ending journey, and never more so than over the last two months. Recall that the last of the scheduled rounds of the transition period talks finished at the beginning of October. Then Boris Johnson set 15 October as the absolute deadline, after which he would walk away, which he sort-of did but actually didn’t once Michel Barnier had placated him by using the ‘right words’ about the negotiations. Then it was reported that 19 November was regarded by the EU as the absolute deadline, but here we still are.

Come on, post these so called "sexist" comments. You are so far up yourself, and so married to identity politics, that you see everything through that lens. I disagree with you. I am a male, you are a female so therefore I must disagree with you because I am sexist, because I hate women! Even though the only person who makes comments denigrating gender is you. I am heterosexual, you are homosexual. So if I disagree with you I must also be homophobic! You are English, I am Australian. I disagree with you then it must be because I hate the English! I don't waste my time chatting to you because you act like one of Pavlov's dogs.


You seem to have a very low opinion of Geoff. You think he was such a snow flake that he couldn't bear anyone disagreeing with him so he packed up his bat and ball and went home. I have no idea why Geoff left and I suspect you don't either. Personally though I think Geoff was made of sterner stuff than you give him credit for.


Really. Is this another one of your so called "facts" like your 2 million marchers? You show us where I ever told Geoff (or anyone) what name they had to call any country by. The closest i ever got to this was informing someone that England wasn't the name of the UK. That whilst England was a part of the UK the UK wasn't England. What a bad person I am. No doubt if that person had left TFS you would have claimed that I had driven them away.

By the way, it has been YOU who has always attacked me for daring to call countries by the name they are known in their native language.


As people can see, I have, and am, happy to discuss things with people who hold very different views to myself. I will give my time to people who are capable of actually engaging in reasonable discussion. If they're not then I don't waste my time on them. Simples.