Brexit

Off track for a minute but personally i find it mildly annoying to go shopping in the lead up to Christmas (when it's btw 30-40c outside) and in store I am bombarded with songs about bloody snow! Hearing "let it snow, let it snow, let it snow" being pumped out over the loud speakers when it's 40c is weird.

Yep, experiencing the same thing.

This article is as good a baseline for discussion as any. It's quite factual, realistic, and it negates false and ludicrous claims that 50+ trade deals have been achieved.

What has been achieved so far?


snip:

So far, more than 20 of these existing deals, covering 50 countries or territories, have been rolled over and will start on 1 January 2021. This represents about 8% of total UK trade, based on 2018 figures. But it is clear that new deals with some countries will not be ready in time.

So.... let's be quite clear.... a "roll over" is NOT a trade deal. It is a temporary measure intended to, in effect, maintain the status quo while trade deal negotiations take place, some of which could take between seven to ten years to complete.

And there is no guarantee that in the end, the final agreement would be advantageous to Britain.

This thread remains chaotic. Not sure who has posted what. But I've picked up some sort of its not a win win situation for any side. All pretty level as far as the whole picture is concerned, with many realising this.

No. That is not the reality. Before the Referendum those choosing to Remain could SEE the reality of membership of the EU all around them. It was what we had. "Win/lose"

While those voting Leave were obviously able to think in terms of "win/win". La la land and pink unicorns. All that money wasted funding the EU bureaucratic machine will now fund OUR social services, our borders totally under our own control, keeping our own fish, not having anyone (foreigners) telling us what to do. And more.....kicking "the establishment" in the teeth.

La la land.

Its pointless deconstructing all those spurious visions of an unrealisable future. Those still advocating and supporting Brexit (fewer and fewer these days as the penny drops) simply avoid the argument and spout "sovereignty" and other ludicrous buzzwords and soundbites You face reality, or not.

Hi again.

I was based in Sydney (suburb was Moorbank/Liverpool, about 20 miles out from Circular Quay) I loved the winters. Fairly constant days of crisp mornings and then fair weather. Summers could be sticky and worse when the wind came from inland - dusty and hot.

Songs in stores reminds me of my time as a shelf stacker (or as a Stock Replenishment Executive per my CV) On the night shift we dreaded Xmas with the the tannoy blaring out such ditties as "I Saw Mother Kissing Santa Claus". The rest of the year our favorite was the Animals with "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" which we sung along to with gusto.

On the plus side.... there is test cricket on Boxing Day. Can't knock that.

I love the hot weather and the humidity doesn't worry me. "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" is a top song. EB has quite the voice. I also don't mind the cover by The Angels.

Meanwhile the Fisheries Bill has passed into law, much to the delight of the NFFO.

For someone who apparently doesn't want a deal with the EU BJ is doing a very good impression of a bloke desperate for one. I think it is now highly unlikely that there won't be a deal. As has always been the case with the EU the negotiations will go down to the last possible minute. I also think it extremely likely that BJ will give ground.

Out of curiosity, has any independent coastal state ever voluntarily given another power control over her fisheries as part of a FTA? Has any other independent nation ever voluntarily accepted rules and regulations from a foreign power in areas like state aid in order to secure a FTA? I can't think of any...

Well, here we go. Around in circles. Back to your claim that the EU are making "extraordinary" demands in the UK Trade Talks, perhaps with the thought/implication that the EU is seeking to "punish" the UK.

I have no idea of the various terms of the multitude of Trade Deals now in place around the world. I doubt that you do. What I do see is that "independence" is a phantom that must needs be exposed as such in our interdependent world (aka the REAL world)

"Bespoke deals geared toward pure UK sovereignty" is yet another will o the wisp, la la land, pink unicorn soundbite that has lulled the gullible. The gullible, led by the little englanders still dreaming of Empire, the money men wishing to keep London as the corrupt money laundering capital of the world, free from EU interference or directives........and a soundbite many rank and file appeal to when refusing to recognise that they are only comfortable when seeing mirror images of themselves in everyone they meet.

We have already agreed on the complexity of the Fishing disputes. As Jennifer has posted, when 80% of Cornish fish is landed at French ports, when UK quotas have ALREADY been sold to overseas countries, quite frankly talking about "control of our waters" and "handing it over" to anyone is sheer nonsense.

Again, given the volume of trade between the UK and the EU it is perfectly reasonable for the EU to be assured that the UK will not seek to gain unfair advantage by subidising any of our goods that are then exported into the EU in competition with the same goods produced in the 27 EU nations.
Obviously they cannot trust us to comply given the UK's current attitude towards the Withdrawal Deal, signed only last year.

(My suspicion is that the UK recognises that only further subsidies to those such as Nissan will keep our car manufacturing in the UK. There is already rumour of the Sunderland plant closing)

Alas, Brexit is the greatest act of national self harm ever perpetrated. I still await being told one single advantage to the average Joe.

(Meanwhile, in France, a one day trial by the French Border Control applying post Brexit rules and regulation, deal or no deal. Within a few hours, five mile lorry queues built up. Hopefully no livestock suffered and the smell of rotting fresh vegetables wasn't too bad)

Anyway, whatever, I'm signing off as far as this thread is concerned. Obviously the point has been reached where going round in circles bears little fruit.

Not really a political animal myself and sometimes I think I would feel more at home in a monastery (given a comfy bed and as much coffee and chocolate as I could manage)

A bit of an idealist. Impractical some would say. Not living in the real world.

Yes, I believe in total freedom of movement for people. Money moves freely, but some of the people of our world end up in sinking dinghies in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea or the English channel. We drop our bombs and sell our arms and people flee - perhaps facing the consequences of our acts would bring a bit of "practicality" and "realism" to the policies of our proud independent land?

"When visions die the people perish." Someone said it, I'm not sure who. We all have our own visions, some more "practical" than others.

All the best down under in Bunyip Bend. Don't fret too much about whether people actually living over here in the UK are "independent" and (how does it go?) free of the shackles of Brussels ......don't get ulcers.

You have to admit that what the EU want is, to say the least, extremely unusual. Now of course they are free to ask for whatever they want, as are the UK. That is how free negotiation works. Nonetheless, as stated, the EU's requests are extremely 'unusual'. Perhaps even unprecedented. That is just an observation.


Your idea of what is necessary to define a nation as being independent is obviously different to mine. Of course we live in a world where most nations are in some way 'connected' with other nations. That to me doesn't mean that the individual nations themselves can't be independent. You seem to disagree. So be it.



Unfortunately corruption can be found everywhere and has been a long standing problem within the EU. Lot's of money men have grown rich from corruption within the EU. It was, and is, a major area of concern.


The UK is a sovereign coastal state. As such it has legal control over it's EEZ, including it's fisheries. What is sheer nonsense is the expectation that the UK voluntarily surrender control of her fisheries to a foreign power. What is sheer nonsense is the EU demand to control the UK's fisheries. If the UK government wish to agree with the EU to a sharing of quotas with reciprocal access to fishing in each party’s exclusive economic zones then that is one thing. To expect however that they should hand over control of fishing in their EEZ to a foreign power is something entirely different. If BJ were to agree to the later then he would be selling out those who voted for him in the understanding that he wouldn't do this.



That is your (rather dramatic) opinion. From a purely economic point of view the pros and cons of leaving the EU won't be able to be assessed for at least 5-8 years.

I understand what you mean.


Substitute coffee for whiskey (Irish and Scottish) and give me access to televised sport and a monastery doesn't sound too bad!


Cheers. All the best to yourself as well.


Don't worry. I'm not the sort of bloke to get ulcers.

In any trade deal, everybody gives up something to get something in return. It's called reciprocity, or you could call it Quid Pro Quo. Give something to get something.

But you're not actually "surrenduring" (emotive term) any sovereignty because by definition, the making of a deal means the VOLUNTARY striking of an agreement.

It's as simple as buying a cup of coffee. You and the vendor come to an agreement. You get a cup of coffee and he gets some of your money. Neither party has been "robbed". It's a mutual transaction with benefit to both parties.

If you can't understand that, then there really is no hope for you.

Britain wants a trade deal with the European Union. The European Union wants a trade deal with Britain. The European Union is prepared to allow Britain favourable access to the Customs Union and Single Market. In return, they want agreement on fishing rights and the level playing field.

That is a fair and equitable arrangement.

It can't be stated in simpler terms than that.

However, it is clear that Britain wants to have access to the single market and customs union, and give nothing in return. That is NOT a fair and equitable agreement.

I don't know how it is possible to state the glaringly bleedin' obvious in simpler terms.

My seven year old can understand this.